So if this line of thinking were true, would Paul's letters have to be later than orthodoxy would now have it (i.e. the 50's)? I'm asking that because that Apocalypse must be after at least the first temple-war of 70 CE right? Unfortunately, my knowledge of any specific details, either in support of or against the book's post-70 birthdate, is woefully lacking, so I'm just going with probable-dates I see given for its composition (90 CE?). But if all the Pauline epistles do indeed use John's Apocalypse as a source, does that mean they are actually from from, even, the second century?.. Would that mean they postdate one or more of the gospels as well?Peter Kirby wrote:I regard the Apocalypse according to John as a seminal text in early Christianity. In it we find the purest form of the idea of 7 letters to 7 churches, embedded in the proper context of the number symbolism of the Apocalypse, completely absent from the letters attributed to Paul and Ignatius. Thus we can take the author of the Muratorian Canon very seriously when he avers that the letters of Paul were modeled, as a collection, after the Apocalypse.
The discussion around this stuff got me wondering about the not-yet-revealed secret name of the Daniel 'Son of Man', and the (IIRC) magical pass-phrases required through the heavens in the Ascension of Isiah, and possible connection back to Stephan's submission above, and the whole Jewish concept of a Unspeakable true name of God. It's hard not to think of the popularity to this day of Christ as one's 'personal savior', and the obvious Christian appeal of forging a personal relationship with God (via Jesus). Could there be something to Christianity (in it's roots) as the taking of that mystical first-name relationship between the People and their God OUT of the Holy-of-Holies, and into the soul of each individual? And all-the-more-so if the Temple itself isn't even any longer in existence, of course!Stephan Huller wrote:Jesus (Eeshu) is just a preservation of the original (secret) god of Israel.
Thanks to anyone who takes time to respond