Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus BarAbbas. Same Name Used For Contrasting Character For Ironic Effect.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:04 pmNota Ben = I have faith that GMark originally had "Jesus Barabbas" but even if it did not I also have faith that you would agree that "BarAbbas" is likely a contrived name intended to achieve a literary theme.
I imagine it is. That is my default position, at any rate. I would feel a lot better about it if I could tell more certainly what the achieved theme was truly supposed to be. The hypotheses so far feel like guesses to me. But I have also not given the topic my all yet, so I could well be wrong about one of them.
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

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I am more intrigued by the Aramaic word for "ear" = אדן. Has anyone considered Mark's interest in Daniel and the possible reference to the "cutting off' of the Lord?
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:40 pm I am more intrigued by the Aramaic word for "ear" = אדן. Has anyone considered Mark's interest in Daniel and the possible reference to the "cutting off' of the Lord?
I think that Mark is Danielic through and through. I can think of several possible references for what you are asking about ("the possible reference to the 'cutting off' of the Lord"). Which one is in your sights?
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Though not as convinced as I was when I first thought of it, I still think the reference to "cut off" is referring to ישר (yashar) and ישו (yeshu), and the slight modification to resh and vav, and that this is why Jesus Christ is so named: as an exemplar of mystical transformation (transmigration?) of man before God.

Stephan, isn't there a legend that Mark had a missing (cut off) finger? Do you think this too could be connected to Daniel 9 by some loose association?
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Mark's finger(s):

Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies 7.30.1: 1 Ἐπειδὰν οὖν Μαρκίων ἢ τῶν ἐκείνου κυνῶν τις ὑλακτῇ κατὰ τοῦ δημιουργοῦ, τοὺς ἐκ τῆς ἀντιπαραθέσεως ἀγαθοῦ καὶ κακοῦ προφέρων λόγους, δεῖ αὐτοῖ(ς) λέγειν ὅτι τούτους οὔτε Παῦλος ὁ ἀπόστολος οὔτε Μάρκος ὁ κολοβοδάκτυλος ἀνήγγειλαν – τούτων γὰρ οὐδε<ὶς> ἐν τῷ <κατὰ> Μάρκον εὐαγγελίῳ γέγραπται – ἀλλὰ Ἐμπεδοκλῆς Μ<έ>τωνος Ἀκραγαντῖνος· ὃν συλαγωγῶν <Μαρκίων> μέχρι νῦν λανθάνειν ὑπελάμβανε τὴν διαταγὴν πάσης τῆς κατ' αὐτὸν αἱρέσεως ἀπὸ τῆς Σικελίας εἰς τοὺς εὐαγγελικοὺς λόγους μεταφέρων αὐταῖς <ταῖς> λέξεσι. / 1 When, therefore, Marcion or any one of his dogs barks against the demiurge, bearing forth reasons from a comparison of good and bad, we must say to them that neither the apostle Paul nor stubby-fingered Mark announced these things. For none of these is written in the gospel {according} to Mark. But rather it is Empedocles [son] of Meto, of Agrigentum, whom [Marcion] captured and imagined that even until now his reappropriation, [still] bearing the same words, of the entire heresy according to him from Sicily into the evangelical volumes would escape notice.

Anti-Marcionite (so called) prologue to Mark: Marcus adseruit, qui et colobodactylus est nominatus, ideo quod ad ceteram corporis proceritatem digitos minores habuisset. hic discipulus et interpres fuit Petri, quem secutus est sicut ipsum audierat referentem. rogatus Romae a fratribus hoc breve evangelium in Italiae partibus scripsit. quod cum Petrus audisset, probavit ecclesiaeque legendum sua auctoritate firmavit. verum post discessum Petri assumpto hoc evangelio quod ipse confecerat, perrexit Aegyptum et primus Alexandriae episcopus ordinatus, Christum annuntians, constituit illic ecclessiam. tantae doctrinae et vitae continentiae fuit ut omnes sectatores Christi ad suum cogeret imitari exemplum. / Mark made his assertion, who was also named stubby-fingers, on account that he had in comparison to the length of the rest of his body shorter fingers. He was a disciple and interpreter of Peter, whom he followed just as he heard him report. When he was requested at Rome by the brethren, he briefly wrote this gospel in parts of Italy. When Peter heard this, he approved and affirmed it by his own authority for the reading of the church. Truly, after the departure of Peter, this gospel which he himself put together having been taken up, he went away into Egypt and, ordained as the first bishop of Alexandria, announcing Christ, he constituted a church there. It was of such teaching and continence of life that it compels all followers of Christ to imitate its example.

Monarchian prologue to Mark: Marcus evangelista dei et beati Petri apostoli in baptismate filius atque in divino sermone discipulus, sacerdotium in Israhel agens, secundum carnem Levita, conversus ad fidem Christi, evangelium in Italia scripsit, ostendens in eo quid et generi suo deberet et Christo. nam initium principii in voce propheticae exclamationis instituens ordinem Leviticae electionis ostendit ut, praedicans praedestinatum Iohannem filium Zachariae in voce angeli adnuntiantis, emissum non solum verbum caro factum sed corpus domini in omnia per verbum divinae vocis animatum initio evangelicae praedicationis ostenderet, ut qui haec legens sciret cui initium carnis in domino et dei advenientis habitaculum caro deberet agnoscere, atque in se verbum vocis quod in consonantibus perdiderat inveniret. denique et perfecti evangelii opus intrans et a baptismo domini praedicare deum inchoans non laboravit nativitatem carnis, quam in prioribus vicerat, dicere, sed totus in primis explosionem deserti, ieiunium numeri, temptationem diaboli, congregationem bestiarum et ministerium protulit angelorum, ut instituens nos ad intellegendum singula in brevi conpingens nec auctoritatem factae rei demeret et perficiendo operi plenitudinem non negaret. denique amputasse sibi post fidem pollicem dicitur ut sacerdotio reprobus haberetur; sed tantum consentiens fidei praedestinata potuit electio, ut nec sic in opere verbi perderet quod prius meruerat in genere, nam Alexandriae episcopus fuit, cuius per singula opus scire et evangelii in se dicta disponere et disciplinam in se legis agnoscere et divinam domini in carne intellegere naturam; quae et nos primum requiri dehinc inquisita volumus agnosci, habentes mercedem exhortationis, quoniam qui plantat et qui rigat unum sunt, qui autem incrementum praestat deus est. / Mark, the evangelist of God and in baptism the son of the blessed apostle Peter and also his disciple in the divine word, performing the priesthood in Israel, a Levite according to the flesh, but converted to the faith of Christ, wrote the gospel in Italy, showing in it what he owed to his own race and what to Christ. For, setting up the start of the beginning with the voice of the prophetic exclamation, he showed the order of his Levitical election so that he, preaching by the voice of the announcing messenger that John the son of Zechariah was the predestinated one, might show at the start of the preaching of the gospel not only that the word made flesh had been sent out but also that the body of the Lord had been animated in all things through the word of the divine voice, so that he who reads these things might realize not to be ignorant to whom he owes the start of the flesh in the Lord and the tabernacle of the coming God, and also that he might find in himself the word of the voice which had been lost in the consonants. Furthermore, both going on with the work of the perfect gospel and starting that God preached from the baptism of the Lord, he did not labor to tell of the nativity of the flesh, which he had conquered in prior portions, but rather right at first he offered the expulsion into the desert, the fasting for the number, the temptation by the devil, the gathering of the beasts, and the ministry by angels, so that, in setting us up to understand by sketching out the details in brief, he might not diminish the authority of what was already done, nor deny the work to be perfected in fullness. Furthermore, he is said to have amputated his thumb after faith so that he might be held to be unfit for the priesthood. But the predestined election held such power, consenting to his faith, that he did not in his work of the word lose what he had previously merited by his race, for he was the bishop of Alexandria, whose work it was to know in detail and to apply the things said in the gospel on his own, and not to be ignorant of the discipline of the law for himself, and to understand the divine nature of the Lord in the flesh. These things we also wish to be sought first, and, when they have been sought, not to be ignored having the reward of the exhortation, since he who plants and he who waters are one; he who yields the increase, however, is God.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Names Use As Evidence of Fiction

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Thanks Ben. I couldn't remember if I was just thinking about something else.

On another note, I do remember thinking the idea of Mark cutting off his finger was an innuendo for circumcision, specifically Paul's own circumcision, the thorn in his flesh.
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Judas Christ

Post by JoeWallack »

Sith Apprentice

JW:

Verse Name Name Prediction/Fulfillment Commentary
6
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.
Judas - -
13
12 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death.
- The brother will deliver up the brother to death -
14
43 And straightway, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
44 Now he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that is he; take him, and lead him away safely.
Judas brother ('s name) delivered up brother to death "lead him away safely" - what an irony Master

I think "Mark" would be sore amazed that he/she/they/it had to wait 2,000 years for their apprentice to explain what he was doing here.


Joseph

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All Good News Things Must Come To An End

Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJxKtOwgLdw

JW:

Theory that "Mark" made up characters named "Simon" to support a primary theme that the supposed historical disciple Simon was not a proper follower of Jesus:

Loss of the name "Peter" First Passion Simon Last Passion Simon Parallel to First Peter Parallel to Last Peter
14
37 He came and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep awake one hour? 38 Keep awake and pray that you may not come into the time of trial; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Peter is "asleep" and did not "watch" as Jesus instructed in the previous chapter. So Peter loses the name Peter and reverts to "Simon".
3 While he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at the table, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very costly ointment of nard, and she broke open the jar and poured the ointment on his head.
In the first Passion story a Simon who was not the first Simon has Jesus in his house for Supper.
15:21 They compelled a passer-by, who was coming in from the country, to carry his cross; it was Simon of Cyrene, the father of Alexander and Rufus.


In the near last Passion story, the last Simon of the Passion carries Jesus' cross.
1:29 As soon as they[n] left the synagogue, they entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 Now Simon’s mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told him about her at once. 31 He came and took her by the hand and lifted her up. Then the fever left her, and she began to serve them.
In the first Simon story Jesus has Supper in Simon's house.
8:33...he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”
34 He called the crowd with his disciples, and said to them, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
In the story of Simon's ending Jesus rebuke's Peter by the formula of deny yourself and following Jesus to the Cross. It looks like Boughtham is correct that "Mark" does use the literary technique of "inclusio". Consistent with a theme of Disciple Replacement "Mark" has introduced new "Simon" characters early and again late in the Passion and placed them in settings that parallel well with the Disciple Simon. Of course Broughtham's conclusion is the opposite of what it should be. Since Inclusio is a literary technique it is evidence of fiction, not history.


PS - For KK's eyes only. Our fav Gospeller loves the physical/spiritual diekotelami. So if Jesus is physically crucified, who is spiritually crucified? Hint = the initials are PS.


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Re: All Good News Things Must Come To An End

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:17 pmPS - For KK's eyes only. Our fav Gospeller loves the physical/spiritual diekotelami. So if Jesus is physically crucified, who is spiritually crucified? Hint = the initials are PS.
Oops! I read this by accident. Sorry. Will try to forget what I read.
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Re: Jesus BarAbbas. Same Name Used For Contrasting Character For Ironic Effect.

Post by Charles Wilson »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:00 pm
JoeWallack wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:04 pmNota Ben = I have faith that GMark originally had "Jesus Barabbas" but even if it did not I also have faith that you would agree that "BarAbbas" is likely a contrived name intended to achieve a literary theme.
...I would feel a lot better about it if I could tell more certainly what the achieved theme was truly supposed to be...
This one doesn't do anything for you?:

Josephus, Antiquities..., 18, 2, 4:

"About this time died Phraates, king of the Parthians, by the treachery of Phraataces his son, upon the occasion following: When Phraates had had legitimate sons of his own, he had also an Italian maid-servant, whose name was Thermusa, who had been formerly sent to him by Julius Caesar, among other presents. He first made her his concubine; but he being a great admirer of her beauty, in process of time having a son by her, whose name was Phraataces, he made her his legitimate wife, and had a great respect for her. Now she was able to persuade him to do any thing that she said, and was earnest in procuring the government of Parthia for her son; but still she saw that her endeavors would not succeed, unless she could contrive how to remove Phraates's legitimate sons [out of the kingdom;] so she persuaded him to send those his sons as pledges of his fidelity to Rome; and they were sent to Rome accordingly...
"So they sent ambassadors to Rome, and desired they would send one of those that were there as pledges to be their king. Accordingly, Vonones was preferred before the rest, and sent to them (for he seemed capable of such great fortune, which two of the greatest kingdoms under the sun now offered him, his own and a foreign one). However, the barbarians soon changed their minds, they being naturally of a mutable disposition, upon the supposal that this man was not worthy to be their governor; for they could not think of obeying the commands of one that had been a slave, (for so they called those that had been hostages,) nor could they bear the ignominy of that name; and this was the more intolerable, because then the Parthians must have such a king set over them, not by right of war, but in time of peace. So they presently invited Artabanus, king of Media, to be their king, he being also of the race of Arsaces. Artabanus complied with the offer that was made him, and came to them with an army. So Vonones met him..."

The entire section should be read before it makes much sense and even then...
The story, however, mirrors "Barabbas" quite nicely: Thermusa gets the king's chilluns out of the country as pledges to Rome. This leaves her son to be placed on the Parthian Throne. Bad move. The Parthians want a Real King:

"Who do we want, any ol' king or a real "SON-OF-THE-FATHER" kind of a king?"
"I know!!! Let's start a Civil War and kill a bunch of our own...Makes a lot of sense to me...After all, we're Parthians, right?...Right?..."

It's a good example of writing a "Jesus Story" from material available at hand, especially Josephus.
"What's not to like?"

CW
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