MARKed - astonishing text variants

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote:All things begin to get solved when we abandon the silly notion that God somehow 'preserved' the original gospels for us. Mark is not the first gospel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ObwyA ... em&f=false
I can not see the next page. But is it correct that in Tatian's Diatessaron (or how you will call it) the rooster crows only after the third denial, but then twice?
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DCHindley
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by DCHindley »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Secret Alias wrote:All things begin to get solved when we abandon the silly notion that God somehow 'preserved' the original gospels for us. Mark is not the first gospel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ObwyA ... em&f=false
I can not see the next page. But is it correct that in Tatian's Diatessaron (or how you will call it) the rooster crows only after the third denial, but then twice?
There is a way to trick the site to display the page. Just add a space after the search terms "cock crows ephraim", then search, and you will be able to access the page.

However, it does not look as though the discussion on the following page has anything to do with Peter weeping after a cock crows twice. The previous discussion in that book, about the light that appeared upon Jesus' baptism in another Romanos hymn, says that W. L. "Curt" Peterson was "the first to suggest" the source was Tatian's Diatessaron, citing VigChr 39 (1985), 171-87.

So he discusses another oddity in Romanos' hymns:
This well-known detail [about Peter's weeping upon the cock crowing] is mentioned twice in Romanos’ Hymn on Peter’s Denial (XXXIV, at 18.1-2 and 19.2). But this same hymn also contains a detail unknown in the canonical gospels. According to Romanos, this is the second time that Peter wept, for he also wept earlier that evening, when he first entered the High Priest’s house. This first, earlier episode of lachrymation is recounted in strophe 10, lines 1-5:

Through the great confusion, the apostle [Peter] was carried along by the crowd
And entered eagerly. And coming within the house he sees there
The fire [ = Jesus] bound and the fodder [ = the High Priest] seated,
Christ standing before the Priest.
And not bearing [to see] the veil, already he weeps.

Is this unusual detail the creation of Romanos’ poetic imagination? Perhaps. But, as we have seen above (in II), a rather similar report is found in the Historia passionis domini, and attributed by the Historia to the Gospel according to the Nazoraeans.
Since he was previously calling attention to the possible source of the light at Jesus' baptism as Ephraem's Commentary on the Diatessaron, I think he is here suggesting that the Gospel according to the Nazoreans could be the Diatessaron's "fifth source".

DCH
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Secret Alias wrote:All things begin to get solved when we abandon the silly notion that God somehow 'preserved' the original gospels for us. Mark is not the first gospel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ObwyA ... em&f=false
I can not see the next page. But is it correct that in Tatian's Diatessaron (or how you will call it) the rooster crows only after the third denial, but then twice?
There is a way to trick the site to display the page. Just add a space after the search terms "cock crows ephraim", then search, and you will be able to access the page.

However, it does not look as though the discussion on the following page has anything to do with Peter weeping after a cock crows twice. The previous discussion in that book, about the light that appeared upon Jesus' baptism in another Romanos hymn, says that W. L. "Curt" Peterson was "the first to suggest" the source was Tatian's Diatessaron, citing VigChr 39 (1985), 171-87.

So he discusses another oddity in Romanos' hymns:
This well-known detail [about Peter's weeping upon the cock crowing] is mentioned twice in Romanos’ Hymn on Peter’s Denial (XXXIV, at 18.1-2 and 19.2). But this same hymn also contains a detail unknown in the canonical gospels. According to Romanos, this is the second time that Peter wept, for he also wept earlier that evening, when he first entered the High Priest’s house. This first, earlier episode of lachrymation is recounted in strophe 10, lines 1-5:

Through the great confusion, the apostle [Peter] was carried along by the crowd
And entered eagerly. And coming within the house he sees there
The fire [ = Jesus] bound and the fodder [ = the High Priest] seated,
Christ standing before the Priest.
And not bearing [to see] the veil, already he weeps.

Is this unusual detail the creation of Romanos’ poetic imagination? Perhaps. But, as we have seen above (in II), a rather similar report is found in the Historia passionis domini, and attributed by the Historia to the Gospel according to the Nazoraeans.
Since he was previously calling attention to the possible source of the light at Jesus' baptism as Ephraem's Commentary on the Diatessaron, I think he is here suggesting that the Gospel according to the Nazoreans could be the Diatessaron's "fifth source".
Thanks, David. The reference to the gospel of the Nazoraeans comes from the History of the Passion of the Lord, folio 35 recto, concerning Peter and John in the court of the high priest:

In evangelio Nazareorum ponitur causa unde Iohannes notus fuerit pontifici. quia cum fuerit filius pauperis piscatoris Zebedei, sepe portaverat pisces ad curias pontificum Anne et Cayphe. exivit autem Iohannes ad ancillam hostiariam et ab ea impetravit quod Petrus socius suus qui anti ianuam stetit plorans fuit intromissus.

In the gospel of the Nazaraeans the reason is given for John having been known to the priest. It was because when he was the son of the poor fisherman Zebedee he often ported fishes to the curias of the priests Annas and Caiaphas. And John went out to the usher-maid and from her procured [permission] that his associate Peter, who stood before the door weeping, should be brought in.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1856.
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

DCHindley wrote:There is a way to trick the site to display the page. Just add a space after the search terms "cock crows ephraim", then search, and you will be able to access the page.

However, it does not look as though the discussion on the following page has anything to do with Peter weeping after a cock crows twice. The previous discussion in that book, about the light that appeared upon Jesus' baptism in another Romanos hymn, says that W. L. "Curt" Peterson was "the first to suggest" the source was Tatian's Diatessaron, citing VigChr 39 (1985), 171-87.

So he discusses another oddity in Romanos' hymns:
This well-known detail [about Peter's weeping upon the cock crowing] is mentioned twice in Romanos’ Hymn on Peter’s Denial (XXXIV, at 18.1-2 and 19.2). But this same hymn also contains a detail unknown in the canonical gospels. According to Romanos, this is the second time that Peter wept, for he also wept earlier that evening, when he first entered the High Priest’s house. This first, earlier episode of lachrymation is recounted in strophe 10, lines 1-5:

Through the great confusion, the apostle [Peter] was carried along by the crowd And entered eagerly. And coming within the house he sees there The fire [ = Jesus] bound and the fodder [ = the High Priest] seated, Christ standing before the Priest. And not bearing [to see] the veil, already he weeps.

Is this unusual detail the creation of Romanos’ poetic imagination? Perhaps. But, as we have seen above (in II), a rather similar report is found in the Historia passionis domini, and attributed by the Historia to the Gospel according to the Nazoraeans.
Since he was previously calling attention to the possible source of the light at Jesus' baptism as Ephraem's Commentary on the Diatessaron, I think he is here suggesting that the Gospel according to the Nazoreans could be the Diatessaron's "fifth source".
Thanks, David. I'm not sure that I understand the train of thought about this hymn und the relation to the Diatessaron :mrgreen:
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DCHindley
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by DCHindley »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Thanks, David. I'm not sure that I understand the train of thought about this hymn und the relation to the Diatessaron :mrgreen:
The book author was not claimingon the following page that Romanos spoke of Peter weeping after hearing a cock crow twice, which is what I think you were inferring, but that Romanos says that Peter had ALSO wept, previously at the HP's house.

How this relates to whatever point SA was making is hard to tell, as he almost always brings up the Diatessaron as an ur-gospel used by Marcionites.

The story of Peter weeping at the HP's house is, though, preserved in a source that attributes it to the Gospel according to the Nazoreans, which has been suggested as the (or one of the) non-canonical sources for the Diatessaron. It is in the footnotes of the previous page than the one you originally gave a link to.
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

DCHindley wrote:The book author was not claimingon the following page that Romanos spoke of Peter weeping after hearing a cock crow twice, which is what I think you were inferring, but that Romanos says that Peter had ALSO wept, previously at the HP's house.

How this relates to whatever point SA was making is hard to tell, as he almost always brings up the Diatessaron as an ur-gospel used by Marcionites.

The story of Peter weeping at the HP's house is, though, preserved in a source that attributes it to the Gospel according to the Nazoreans, which has been suggested as the (or one of the) non-canonical sources for the Diatessaron. It is in the footnotes of the previous page than the one you originally gave a link to.
Thanks again. I assume it was one of Stephan's flying thoughts.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by Ben C. Smith »

After reading some of Roger David Aus, The Wicked Tenants and Gethsemane, I am struck by the convergence of several details at two of the spots in the Mishnah where the cock's crow is mentioned: the tractates Yoma and Tamid. I highlighted these passages here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1429&start=20#p58632.

First, in Yoma 1.5, on the Day of Atonement, the priests would admonish the High Priest who was about to perform the rites:

They said to him: My master the High Priest we are messengers of the court and you are our messenger. As the messenger of the court we adjure you in the Name of Him that caused His Name to dwell in this house, that you do [the rites exactly as we prescribed, namely, that you place the incense on the fire only after entering the Holy of Holies and] not change anything from that which we said to you. He turned aside and wept and they turned aside and wept.

Peter, too, weeps after he realizes that he has denied his Lord. He also swears an oath in the process of denying his Lord, similarly to how the priests would adjure the High Priest (= secure an oath from him).

Second, in Tamid 1.1, a young priest who has had a nightly emission would have to go through a few steps to cleanse himself:

If he found it locked, he would know that there was somebody there. If it was open, he would know that there was nobody there, he would go down and immerse himself, come up and dry off and warm himself by the bonfire.

Peter, too, warms himself by the fire.

Aus also points out that, just as cockcrow was a synonym for the third (and final Jewish) watch of the night, so Peter denied Jesus three times. Perhaps the original idea was that he denied Jesus once during the first watch (the evening), again during the midnight watch, and a third time during the watch of the cock crow (that is, before the cock crowed).

Ben.
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote:After reading some of Roger David Aus, The Wicked Tenants and Gethsemane, I am struck by the convergence of several details at two of the spots in the Mishnah where the cock's crow is mentioned: the tractates Yoma and Tamid. I highlighted these passages here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1429&start=20#p58632.

First, in Yoma 1.5, on the Day of Atonement, the priests would admonish the High Priest who was about to perform the rites:

They said to him: My master the High Priest we are messengers of the court and you are our messenger. As the messenger of the court we adjure you in the Name of Him that caused His Name to dwell in this house, that you do [the rites exactly as we prescribed, namely, that you place the incense on the fire only after entering the Holy of Holies and] not change anything from that which we said to you. He turned aside and wept and they turned aside and wept.

Peter, too, weeps after he realizes that he has denied his Lord. He also swears an oath in the process of denying his Lord, similarly to how the priests would adjure the High Priest (= secure an oath from him).

Second, in Tamid 1.1, a young priest who has had a nightly emission would have to go through a few steps to cleanse himself:

If he found it locked, he would know that there was somebody there. If it was open, he would know that there was nobody there, he would go down and immerse himself, come up and dry off and warm himself by the bonfire.

Peter, too, warms himself by the fire.
Very interesting.
Ben C. Smith wrote:Aus also points out that, just as cockcrow was a synonym for the third (and final Jewish) watch of the night, so Peter denied Jesus three times. Perhaps the original idea was that he denied Jesus once during the first watch (the evening), again during the midnight watch, and a third time during the watch of the cock crow (that is, before the cock crowed).
Agreed.

- sleeping in Gethsemane
- warming by the fire in the palace of the High Priest
- denial before the rooster's crow
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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by Charles Wilson »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Peter, too, warms himself by the fire.
According to John, Peter warms himself by the "charcoal fire":

John 18: 18 (RSV):

[18] Now the servants and officers had made a charcoal fire, because it was cold, and they were standing and warming themselves; Peter also was with them, standing and warming himself.

Look at Berakoth 28A ( http://www.come-and-hear.com/berakoth/berakoth_28.html ):

"On that day Judah, an Ammonite proselyte, came before them in the Beth ha-Midrash. He said to them: Am I permitted to enter the assembly? R. Joshua said to him: You are permitted to enter the congregation. Said Rabban Gamaliel to him: Is it not already laid down, At Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord?...Forthwith they permitted him to enter the congregation. Rabban Gamaliel thereupon said: This being the case, I will go and apologize to R. Joshua. When he reached his house he saw that the walls were black. He said to him: From the walls of your house it is apparent that you are a charcoal-burner...They said: Who will go and tell the Rabbis? A certain fuller said to them: I will go...Lock the doors so that the servants of Rabban Gamaliel should not come and upset the Rabbis..."

I've cut out too much and not enough. There is something complex in this story. Nonetheless, notice how it reads as a Template for Peter getting into the Courtyard yet not into the Inner Court. (BTW, note that "charcoal fire" also occurs in John 21, where Titus...Oh, never mind...
Aus also points out that, just as cockcrow was a synonym for the third (and final Jewish) watch of the night, so Peter denied Jesus three times. Perhaps the original idea was that he denied Jesus once during the first watch (the evening), again during the midnight watch, and a third time during the watch of the cock crow (that is, before the cock crowed).
The Disciples "denied" Jesus three times as well. They could not keep awake to the end of their Watches. Those who were awake with the "Fourth Watch" could and they controlled events from that point on.

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Re: MARKed - astonishing text variants

Post by iskander »

Peter's denial tells a different story- Peter has no emissions! :thumbdown:



http://www.emishnah.com/moed2/Yoma/1.pdf
Mishnah Yoma, chapter 1
(1) Seven days before Yom Kippur they seclude the High Priest from his home to the chamber of the officials [since it is only the High Priest who performs the Yom Kippur service he is secluded within the Temple confines to assure that he does not become defiled and disqualified. This is further deduced from the verse regarding the seven days of inaugeration (see 8:33)]. And as a further precaution] another priest is prepared to take his place in case he becomes disqualified [by becoming defiled]. Rabbi Yehudah says: We also prepare for him another wife lest his wife dies [and disqualifies him from service] for the verse states: “And he shall make atonement for himself and his household,” (Leviticus 6:16) “his household” means his wife [thus having a household is a requirement for qualification]. They said to him: If that be so there would be no end to the matter [for why not prepare another wife in case the replacement also dies and so on and so forth]. (2) Throughout all these seven days he would sprinkle the blood [of the two daily tamid offerings so as to accustom himself to the blood service], burns the ...



(4) Throughout the seven days they did not withhold from him food or drink [even those kinds that may cause emissions]. But on the erev of Yom Kippur near nightfall they would not allow him to eat a lot because food induces sleep [and he not allowed to sleep the night of Yom Kippur lest he have an emission]....
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