Messiah != Son of God

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by mlinssen »

Steven Avery wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:27 am In addition to the question for spin, about the Greek text, I am also questioning English language experts to simply look at the Authorized Version text and give what they would see as the likely meaning.

e.g. I just put the question up at Reddit.

the English text of the Authorized Version on Romans 9:5 - simplest, clearest interpretation
https://www.reddit.com/r/grammar/commen ... ersion_on/
Get Berean Interlinear and all your troubles are over

ὧν (whose are) οἱ (the) πατέρες (patriarchs); καὶ (and) ἐξ (from) ὧν (whom is) ὁ (-) Χριστὸς (Christ) τὸ (-) κατὰ (according to) σάρκα (the flesh), ὁ (-) ὢν (being) ἐπὶ (over) πάντων (all) Θεὸς (God), εὐλογητὸς (blessed) εἰς (to) τοὺς (the) αἰῶνας (ages).
ἀμήν (Amen).

You'll have to check the words by clicking on them, which will lead you to biblehub. There you have to use some common sense by looking at what the description says, what the various translations are, etc - as a great part of it all is interpretation nonetheless

πατέρες means fathers, and one must know that no MS ever has diacritics so there can't be any difference between ὧν and ὢν other than what one wants it to be.
And it doesn't say anything like Χριστὸς ever anywhere, the only word that comes close to Christ is the Chrestians from Acts 11:26, 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16. Sinaiticus has the easiest navigation and a great transcription:

ων οι πατερεϲ και εξ ων ο χϲ το κατα ϲαρκα ο ων επι παντων θϲ ευλογητοϲ ειϲ τουϲ αιωναϲ αμην

Notice the replacement of the ν of παντων by a superlinear, a highly likely legacy from Demotic, occurring hundreds of times in Christian MSS like this one - that, on a side note

The translation likely is NASB or WEB or something, don't use it!

https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscri ... omSlider=0

This is the very least of the hoops one has to jump through - if only someone would make us a fine literal NT translation!

Having a go at your Reddit post:

Romans 9:5 (AV)

Whose are the fathers,

and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,

who is over all,

God blessed for ever.

Amen.

My version:

Romans 9:5 (AV)

Of-whom the fathers,
and out-of whom the XS - he-who according-to the-flesh
he-who being over all god
well-spoken-of into the aeons
amen

And it just says what it says: "Christ is god"
Steven Avery
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Steven Avery »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:54 am Get Berean Interlinear and all your troubles are over .... And it just says what it says: "Christ is god"
My question does not really care about the interlinear, I am looking at the English text of the AV.

Do you believe that English text really says?

(Christ is) God (who is) blessed for ever ........... by creation, his people or Paul
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Irish1975
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Irish1975 »

In my opinion, the AV is a translation from the Greek.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Peter Kirby »

brianrw wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:00 pm
Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:20 pm to Steven Avery,
True, the RSV added up some wording not in the Greek text and translate "fathers" by "patriarchs". According to the ASV, the most correct translation would be:
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The fathers are said to be Israelite in the preceding verse:
ASV, "who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;"

Putting Ro 9:4-5 together:
"who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;"
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


I don't know where you stand, but for me this is a strong affirmation of Christ as human and Jewish.

Cordially, Bernard
Respectfully, I feel that "According to the ASV, the most correct translation would be," etc. does not address the question; you mention the Greek, but how well do you understand it?

Mr. Avery's inquiry involves remarks by Spin that θεὸς εὐλογητὸς involves two nouns, one being a nominalized verb, that are strung together, yielding the meaning, "blessed by God," which is incorrect in both its result and analysis. θεὸς (God) is a noun and εὐλογητὸς (blessed) is an adjective in the predicate position, not a nominalized verb. We are therefore not dealing with “two nouns” strung together to form the passive English construction “blessed by God." To clarify, Mr. Avery is seeking support for the passive construction “blessed by God.”

The Greek text in question is ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν (TR)

In the above text, the articular ὁ ὢν forms an attributive (present) participle construction; the present participle in English is “being.” This sets off an equative clause, which asserts Christ being “over all” and being “God." Thus we have two options in English: (1) to bring θεὸς directly into English as a predicate nominative, “Christ . . . who is God over all, blessed forever” or (2) to render the predicate as an apposition (which has the same essential force), “Christ . . . who is over all, God blessed forever.” (ASV, NASB, KJV). In the latter English construction, “blessed” functions as a predicate adjective setting off the clause “blessed forever.” Both translations speak of Christ as God, and there is no significant variation in the overall meaning.

The interpretation “Blessed by God” misreads the adjective “blessed” as a past participle (verb) “blessed,” which is identical in spelling. A predicate adjective simply describes the subject. A participle, however, is a verbal adjective that can perform a verbal action.
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brianrw
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by brianrw »

Peter Kirby wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:36 pm Welcome to the forum!
Thanks!
Bernard Muller
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Bernard Muller »

From the ASV:

Rom 1:25
for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

2Co 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;

2Co 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for evermore knoweth that I lie not.

Compare with:
Rom 9:5
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Cordially, Bernard
brianrw
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by brianrw »

Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:13 am From the ASV:

Rom 1:25
for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

2Co 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;

2Co 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for evermore knoweth that I lie not.

Compare with:
Rom 9:5
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Cordially, Bernard
Some translations render the attributive participle quite awkwardly in 2 Corinthians 11:31.
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Steven Avery »

Hi Brian,
brianrw wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:00 pm
Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:13 am From the ASV:

2Co 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for evermore knoweth that I lie not.
Some translations render the attributive participle quite awkwardly in 2 Corinthians 11:31.
"Quite awkwardly" would be a mistranslation.

=====================================

2 Corinthians 11:31 (AV)
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which is blessed for evermore,
knoweth that I lie not.

Does the AV count as one of the awkward translations?

Which ones do you find acceptable?
https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/11-31.htm

And who is being blessed for evermore?
=====================================
Steven Avery
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Romans 9:5 - understanding the English AV text

Post by Steven Avery »

Here Brian gives a type of explanation of his position contra spin, looking at the translation issues to English.
https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?th ... #post-9606

=================================

Brian
Here's some of the challenges that a translator faces here:
...
"God" is a predicate nominative to "Christ" as well as the predicand of "blessed," yet it is formally attached to "over all" by the attributive participle (the article creates a stronger relation than a simple relative). The flexibility of Greek word order allows this. However, English wants the subject to come first ("God over all" vs "over all, God"), so I have to actually make a choice of which connection to emphasize in the English. If I want to choose to connect "God" with "over all" then "God" has to come first in English, but that breaks it away from "blessed." If I want (as I prefer to keep the words together) to emphasize the attachment to "blessed," then it breaks from "over all." It's not that one or the other is right, but that I can only choose one.

=================================
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mlinssen
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by mlinssen »

Steven Avery wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:33 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:54 am Get Berean Interlinear and all your troubles are over .... And it just says what it says: "Christ is god"
My question does not really care about the interlinear, I am looking at the English text of the AV.

Do you believe that English text really says?

(Christ is) God (who is) blessed for ever ........... by creation, his people or Paul
It is foolish to look at English when you want to know what a text says, all translations are falsifications with the main goal being to uphold dogmatic "truths".
There is no text in the early centuries that even says Jesus or Christ, it's all I(H)S or X(H)S.
If you want to dispute the ASV or any other bible "translation", on which grounds will you do that? Gut feeling, or the text itself?
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