Messiah != Son of God

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by rakovsky »

spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote: You basically ignored what I wrote and sought confirmation for an alternative. No substantive question.

Is asking about an alternative substantive?
It's merely a transparent deflection from someone not dealing with what is in front of them.
" stop fucking around" three messages above looks like degrading your own ability to have a discussion.

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rakovsky
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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You are saying blessed goes with the noun before it unless there is some grammar reason to stick it with the next part of the sentence and you are demanding that I address this.
Ok. Can the grammar reason be that "forever" by itself is not grammatically self standing and therefore requires a noun to say what it is that is "forever," and in this case, that eternal thing is the "blessed" one, the verbal noun you refer to? The "blessed one forever"?

Taking out the commas and looking at context two other things show up:
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is over all
God
blessed forever! Amen.
6 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.…

Compare this with
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1. In your rendering of Romans 9, Jesus is "over all".

Who is over all in pharisaic Judaism that Paul claimed to come from besides God?
Second, what does it mean when Paul talks about God's word? Do you think it might happen to have something to do with Paul's idea that Jesus is God's son and his idea that everything exists in him?
Hint Hint

If he means by God's word what John does, it means Jesus is God, since "the word was God".

I think Paul likes to be a bit cryptic though instead of knocking the reader over the head like John does.

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Rakovsky,
that's how buzzwords work. Sometimes they mean something mundane. Another term for it is dog whistling. The dogs get the whistle, but the humans dont.
So that would put you as a dog and myself as a human?
They are cryptic references and buzzwords for the in crowd, and those who want to stay on the outside don't "get it", to use another term with secondary meanings, ie "to understand".
What make you an expert into detecting cryptic references and deciding on buzzwords?
" one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
That was the same phrase he used for God the Father in the same chapter.
And where that "same phrase" would be in the same chapter (1 Cor 8)?
See also the quote I gave from rom. 9 v. 5 where he calls the Messiah God.
spin answer you on that and I agree with him.
Here is the RSV translation for Ro 9:5:
"to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen."

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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rakovsky
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by rakovsky »

Paul writes in his letter to Timothy:
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

If Paul considers God to be Lord, how can he call Jesus the "only" potentate?

And in Rom 1, Paul writes that people "changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
When he says worship of the Creator, it sounds like he means worship of God....
But we know from Colossians Paul considers Jesus the Creator.

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rakovsky
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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Bernard Muller wrote:to Rakovsky,
that's how buzzwords work. Sometimes they mean something mundane. Another term for it is dog whistling. The dogs get the whistle, but the humans dont.
So that would put you as a dog and myself as a human?
They are cryptic references and buzzwords for the in crowd, and those who want to stay on the outside don't "get it", to use another term with secondary meanings, ie "to understand".
What make you an expert into detecting cryptic references and deciding on buzzwords?
" one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
That was the same phrase he used for God the Father in the same chapter.
And where that "same phrase" would be in the same chapter (1 Cor 8)?
"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
The phrase describing God is highlighted.

Jesus is seen by Paul as a being through whom everyone and everything was created.
And Paul sets that up in comparison with the Father the ultimate source of everying.
So at the least in this verse you are left with Arianism where Jesus is a divine being who preexisted the world and created it.

In case you prefer Spin's version, then you are still left with Paul teaching that Jesus is "over all".
Last edited by rakovsky on Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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spin
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by spin »

rakovsky wrote:Russian translators also said Over All God here:
от них Христос по плоти, сущий над всем Бог, благословенный во веки, аминь.
From Christ by the flesh, existing over all God, blessed in ages Amen.
Over all God sounds fine in Russian, since word order is less important than in English.
You're supposed to be trying to deal with Greek. Not English. Not Russian. Not Saami.
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rakovsky
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

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spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:Russian translators also said Over All God here:
от них Христос по плоти, сущий над всем Бог, благословенный во веки, аминь.
From Christ by the flesh, existing over all God, blessed in ages Amen.
Over all God sounds fine in Russian, since word order is less important than in English.
You're supposed to be trying to deal with Greek. Not English. Not Russian. Not Saami.
Yes, Russian translators were dealing with Greek. The value is a different group of translators reached the same conclusion coming from a different tradition and language family, Slavic and orthodox.

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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by rakovsky »

The letter to Titus says:

"It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

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spin
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by spin »

Rakovsky wrote: yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
That's one of the many examples that shows that Paul is not a binitarian. There is one god, the father... and one lord, Jesus.... A god and a lord. Jesus is the latter category.
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spin
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by spin »

rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote:
rakovsky wrote:Russian translators also said Over All God here:
от них Христос по плоти, сущий над всем Бог, благословенный во веки, аминь.
From Christ by the flesh, existing over all God, blessed in ages Amen.
Over all God sounds fine in Russian, since word order is less important than in English.
You're supposed to be trying to deal with Greek. Not English. Not Russian. Not Saami.
Yes, Russian translators were dealing with Greek. The value is a different group of translators reached the same conclusion coming from a different tradition and language family, Slavic and orthodox.
You are not dealing with the Greek. You are just wasting people's time. I've shown you the natural reading, pointed out the grammar behind it and once again you show you can't deal with anything. I've had enough of your evasions and subterfuge. Ignorant of Paul's theology, you try to make him binitarian not based on what Paul says, but on tendentious christian subterfuge.
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