Messiah != Son of God

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Bernard Muller »

to rakovsky,
Paul also considers all things to be through God,
"one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
(Ephesians 4:6).
Here is another example:
"we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed ."
Titus 2:13
Ephesians, Titus, gJohn, Revelation were not written by Paul, but many years later, when orthodox Christianity was evolving.
In Isaiah 44, God is the one and only master builder.
Yes, but that was changing in the first century, just like in Philo of Alexandria's writings, where the master builder is the Word, and in Hebrews (1:10), God saying to his Son: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands"
Paul followed the trend.
As a Jew, Lord is a normal title for God by Paul.
I understand you. You don't think Jesus is God, and so you prefer to detrinitize the verses as much as possible.
Not true: most often, "Lord" is closely associated with "Jesus".
Paul considered Jesus as divine but never as God himself. Paul thought also Christ was inferior to God:
1 Cor 11:3 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
The ideas of Jesus being God, the Creator, the Lord over all, existing before any other being besides the Father are all over the NT and Paul.
Not in 1 Corinthians for Paul for the Creator, just the master builder of the universe and the first being created by God.
Additional claims about Jesus were introduced progressively in later NT texts as part of the evolution of Christianity.
It's mind blowing, so some people like Arianism and JWs prefer to down play this stuff as much as possible.
I am not interested by any dreamed up uniform Christian theology from a Christian perspective, just by the history of the beginning & evolution of early Christianity.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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spin
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by spin »

rakovsky wrote:
spin wrote: You were changing the topic as you have so frequently done.
Main point on the OP topic is that the early writings see Messiah as divine son of God, with at least cryptic references to Jesus as God too.
Still finding ways to insist on changing the topic!
More narrowly on Rom 9 5 what you and I were discussing, I would love to see some scholarship saying grammatically your translation is the only one.
Lol. I've already stated a few grammatical issues regarding reading god with blessed. Once again you are trying to change the topic onto scholars. This is apparently because you've been bullshitting your way through the discussion, relying on translations, tendentious rubbish translations. You need to admit that you are at the mercy of those who believe their dogma ahead of their ability to translate.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
iskander
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by iskander »

iskander wrote:
iskander wrote:Context:
Romans 9:4-5, these verses explain the background of the New Testament : the story in the NT is a development of the religion of the Israelites who are sons of God and used to the presence of God in their midst as partner , overseer , maestro and Santa.
From this people by sexual intercourse [ kata sarka , natural descent] a Messiah was born .This Messiah is a precious gift of the one who is above all.
NT verses chosen:
Romans 9:4They are descendants of Israel, chosen to be God's sons; theirs is the glory of the divine presence, theirs the covenants, the law, the temple worship, and the promises.
Romans 9:5 The patriarchs are theirs, and from them by natural descent came the Messiah. May God, supreme above all , be blessed forever! Amen.
The Oxford Study Bible
https://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/books/ref ... 7QodT5QCOg
Romans 9:4-5 makes the existence of a historical claimant to the post of messiah very likely.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Study-B ... 0195290003

Romans 9:4-5 makes the existence of a historical claimant to the post of messiah very likely. Does Romans 9:4-5 still make it so?
In his affidavit, the lead gabbai, Rabbi Zalman Lipskier, wrote that “the real issue in dispute involves conflicting views on how our faith views the passing of the Grand Rebbe Schneerson and whether or not at this time he may be referred to publicly as the Messiah.”
http://forward.com/news/10348/lawsuit-o ... z48jd3YFwM
Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2753&start=60
Douglas Moo
iskander wrote:...
Thank you very much.
Douglas J. Moo writes in, The epistle to the Romans, the following: see attached file Romans 9 a.( page 565)

Is it possible from the Greek text to know who Jesus was in the mind of Paul?, -- a choice between either the messiah sent by God or, alternatively, the presence of God incarnate.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2499&p=57097&hilit=iskander#p57097
Steven Avery
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Romans 9:5

Post by Steven Avery »

spin wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:59 am

(οι πατερες εκ ων)
(the fathers from whom)
ο χριστος
the Christ
το κατα σαρκα
according to the flesh
ο ων επι παντων
who is over all
θεος ευλογητος εις τους αιωνας
God blessed for ever

The last line is Greek working differently from English. We'd use a subordinate clause, "who God blessed forever." The Greek instead uses a verbal form as a noun, still with the subject "God" and tacks the whole nominalized sentence on. We might try "blessed by God forever". God is the one doing the blessing and the Christ is the one blessed. However, the trinitarian Christian oblivious to the fact that Paul is not trinitarian (or even binitarian) happily reorganizes the sentence to make the messiah God. This is amazing doctrinal manipulation of the text. It shows just how easily faith clouds judgment even of those who are supposed to be supplying the best tools for the faithful to use. Instead, they are letting their readers down.

Add Rom 9:5 to your list. If the translation equates the messiah with God you know its a crap translation.
Hi spin,

While I am an evangelical with a "oneness" background. I definitely appreciate your thoughts on Romans 9:5 and agree with your translation warning. This occurs also with the Granville Sharp Rule for Fools.

A friend of mine disagrees with your analysis of Romans 9:5 and has his own grammatical perspective to share. I think I will be posting his material for your feedback, I think earlier your suggested feedback and alternative views.

Thanks!

Steven Avery
Dutchess County, NY USA
Last edited by Steven Avery on Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steven Avery
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Romans 9:5

Post by Steven Avery »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:55 am
spin answer you on that and I agree with him.
Here is the RSV translation for Ro 9:5:
"to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen."

Cordially, Bernard
HI Bernard,

My understanding is that spin would not accept the RSV text. It separates Christ from “over all” and also from being “God blessed”, and came very from questionable punctuation insertion.

The Authorized Version English text matches what Spin wrote.

Romans 9:5 (AV)
Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
who is over all,
God blessed for ever.
Amen
Steven Avery
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Romans 9:5

Post by Steven Avery »

Hi Spin,

Here is the critique from Brian.

I’ll add his bold shortly.

============

I'm having trouble believing this, based on his comments. Namely:

The last line is Greek working differently from English. We'd use a subordinate clause, "who God blessed forever." The Greek instead uses a verbal form as a noun, still with the subject "God" and tacks the whole nominalized sentence on. We might try "blessed by God forever".

He's referring to θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν

His further details are equally abhorrent:

On the text, the writer has placed two noun forms together, God and the nominalized verb ("blessed"),

First, there is no pronoun in the Greek that justifies the addition of "who" before God. It's an equative clause involving a participle verb (lit. "being," translated "is"), which means the whole of what follows between that and the adjective is descriptive of Christ. Secondly, εὐλογητὸς is not a verbal form used as a noun. It is literally an adjective. Don't believe me? You can verify that here. In other words, he pretends that an adjective is actually a verb working as a noun, and that somehow the two nouns connected together have the force of a verb joined together with a preposition. I'd laugh, but it's not funny.

Perseus
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... to/s&la=gr


===========

I can't see how on earth someone with a "strong" Greek background can say the construction is a noun coupled with a verb nominalized as a noun, that is two nouns strung together forming a relative clause (he actually says subordinate clause) joined together by a preposition. It's absolute madness. There's nothing coherent in that how statement. Pretty much, it's like using a bunch of words strung together to sound smart.

It is not nominalized verb acting as a noun. It is a nominative adjective in the predicate position.

Also, it seems the native Greek writers as far back as we have record, and the heretics who might have benefited from this reading, missed the memo on this one too ("who God blessed forever.")

===========
Bernard Muller
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Steven Avery,
True, the RSV added up some wording not in the Greek text and translate "fathers" by "patriarchs". According to the ASV, the most correct translation would be:
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The fathers are said to be Israelite in the preceding verse:
ASV, "who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;"

Putting Ro 9:4-5 together:
"who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;"
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


I don't know where you stand, but for me this is a strong affirmation of Christ as human and Jewish.

Cordially, Bernard
Steven Avery
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Steven Avery »

Hi Bernard,

Thanks!
That is close to the AV text and I believe matches what is given by spin.

However, the point that is really at issue is not human, Jewish, Israel ... it is the meaning of:

Christ ... over all, God blessed for ever.

And the Received Text Greek as well.

e.g. is Christ blessed by God for ever?
That is the natural reading of our English text, but is only occasionally given in commentary.

Brian claims that Christ and God are in apposition, so that it is saying Christ is God. Even though this is awkward grammatically and contextually (normative New Testament usage is dual addressing), it is rather popular in Christian commentary circles, including some of the early church writers.

The supposed transference --
Christ --> God --> being blessed by people or creation or Paul

is exceedingly awkward in English and does not match the AV text. (It might if there was a comma after God.)

Hope that is reasonably clear ! :)
Steven Avery
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by Steven Avery »

In addition to the question for spin, about the Greek text, I am also questioning English language experts to simply look at the Authorized Version text and give what they would see as the likely meaning.

e.g. I just put the question up at Reddit.

the English text of the Authorized Version on Romans 9:5 - simplest, clearest interpretation
https://www.reddit.com/r/grammar/commen ... ersion_on/
brianrw
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Re: Messiah != Son of God

Post by brianrw »

Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:20 pm to Steven Avery,
True, the RSV added up some wording not in the Greek text and translate "fathers" by "patriarchs". According to the ASV, the most correct translation would be:
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The fathers are said to be Israelite in the preceding verse:
ASV, "who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;"

Putting Ro 9:4-5 together:
"who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service, and the promises;"
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


I don't know where you stand, but for me this is a strong affirmation of Christ as human and Jewish.

Cordially, Bernard
Respectfully, I feel that "According to the ASV, the most correct translation would be," etc. does not address the question; you mention the Greek, but how well do you understand it?

Mr. Avery's inquiry involves remarks by Spin that θεὸς εὐλογητὸς involves two nouns, one being a nominalized verb, that are strung together, yielding the meaning, "blessed by God," which is incorrect in both its result and analysis. θεὸς (God) is a noun and εὐλογητὸς (blessed) is an adjective in the predicate position, not a nominalized verb. We are therefore not dealing with “two nouns” strung together to form the passive English construction “blessed by God." To clarify, Mr. Avery is seeking support for the passive construction “blessed by God.”

The Greek text in question is ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν (TR)

In the above text, the articular ὁ ὢν forms an attributive (present) participle construction; the present participle in English is “being.” This sets off an equative clause, which asserts Christ being “over all” and being “God." Thus we have two options in English: (1) to bring θεὸς directly into English as a predicate nominative, “Christ . . . who is God over all, blessed forever” or (2) to render the predicate as an apposition (which has the same essential force), “Christ . . . who is over all, God blessed forever.” (ASV, NASB, KJV). In the latter English construction, “blessed” functions as a predicate adjective setting off the clause “blessed forever.” Both translations speak of Christ as God, and there is no significant variation in the overall meaning.

The interpretation “Blessed by God” misreads the adjective “blessed” as a past participle (verb) “blessed,” which is identical in spelling. A predicate adjective simply describes the subject. A participle, however, is a verbal adjective that can perform a verbal action.
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