The Identity of Celsus and His "Jew"
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
The authenticity of Celsus's Jew is as controverted as that of Justin's Trypho. It has been argued that he, like Trypho, is entirely fictional, a view routinely encouraged by Origen to discredit his opponent (Cels. 1: 28,34,49,55,57,67; 2:1,34,53, etc). Yet neither Origen's assurances nor the content of the Jew's arguments support this conclusion. As with Trypho, the important issue is not whether he was a real person, a single individual whose opinions Celsus repeats verbatim, but whether the arguments attributed to him accurately reflect the sort of things a Jew might have said about Christianity in the second half of the second century. In general they do and I would would take the arguments of the two figures to be mutually supportive." [Stephen Wilson Related Strangers p. 268]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
Celsus's Jew is also a Jewish writer who is familiar with the gospel.it is striking to note that Justin Martyr, who appears to quote Gospel material and is possibly the first Christian author to show knowledge of the fourfold Gospel, never makes Trypho engage in argument about these sources, although never makes Trypho engage in argument about these sources, although we should note that at Dial. 18.1 Justin states that Trypho has read the doctrines taught by Jesus. Such a statement, which one which one presumes possesses some verisimilitude (Justin knows of Jews who did such things), should make us wary of exploiting silence too much. Absence of straightforward argument about the content of the Gospels might be best explained by noting that the central concern of the Dialogue is Jewish and Christian contention over the Old Testament, for those were the texts that both parties acknowledged (cf. Dial 120.5) [Paget Jews, Christians and Jewish Christians in Antiquity p. 275]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
The single accusation that Jesus was a sorcerer is found in several passages. In his First Apology 30 Justin refers to the claim by his opponents that the miracles of Jesus were done by the use of magical arts. Writing at about the same time as Justin, Celsus repeatedly makes the same accusation, usually when he is citing the polemic of a Jew. [Graham Stanton Jesus of Nazareth p. 168]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
Most scholars believe that Origen is confusing two separate people here. Celsus the Anti-Christian writer (probably some sort of Platonist) and Celsus the late 2nd century Epicurean the dedicatee of Lucian's AlexanderPeter Kirby wrote: Origen also frequently alleges that Celsus is an atheist and an Epicurean, who thus has no real belief in Æsculapius; which would suggest, if true, that the analogy drawn by Celsus between Æsculapius and Jesus draws attention to some doubt on the part of Celsus regarding the latter god's "existence."
Andrew Criddle
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
If it is of interest, I wrote about the identity of Celsus and the Jewish character and Asclepius in a publication now online, searchable: "Celsus of Pergamum: Locating a Critic of Early Christianity," Ch. 30 in The Archaeology of Difference: Gender, Ethnicity, Class and the "Other" in Antiquity: Studies in Honor of Eric M. Meyers (AASOR 60/61, 2007).
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
Hi StephenStephenGoranson wrote:If it is of interest, I wrote about the identity of Celsus and the Jewish character and Asclepius in a publication now online, searchable: "Celsus of Pergamum: Locating a Critic of Early Christianity," Ch. 30 in The Archaeology of Difference: Gender, Ethnicity, Class and the "Other" in Antiquity: Studies in Honor of Eric M. Meyers (AASOR 60/61, 2007).
IIUC you identify the Celsus who Origen tried to refute with the friend of Lucian by arguing that Lucian need not have seriously meant that his friend Celsus was a committed Epicurean.
Andrew Criddle
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
That was a fun read. Thanks, Stephen.StephenGoranson wrote:If it is of interest, I wrote about the identity of Celsus and the Jewish character and Asclepius in a publication now online, searchable: "Celsus of Pergamum: Locating a Critic of Early Christianity," Ch. 30 in The Archaeology of Difference: Gender, Ethnicity, Class and the "Other" in Antiquity: Studies in Honor of Eric M. Meyers (AASOR 60/61, 2007).
Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
The Identity of Celsus and His "Jew"
Stephen,StephenGoranson wrote:If it is of interest, I wrote about the identity of Celsus and the Jewish character and Asclepius in a publication now online, searchable: "Celsus of Pergamum: Locating a Critic of Early Christianity," Ch. 30 in The Archaeology of Difference: Gender, Ethnicity, Class and the "Other" in Antiquity: Studies in Honor of Eric M. Meyers (AASOR 60/61, 2007).
That is a very interesting essay, thanks!
For the lurker, the paper is available for download at:
http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Celsus_of_Pergamum.pdf
DCH
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?
andrewcriddle wrote:Most scholars believe that Origen is confusing two separate people here. Celsus the Anti-Christian writer (probably some sort of Platonist) and Celsus the late 2nd century Epicurean the dedicatee of Lucian's AlexanderPeter Kirby wrote: Origen also frequently alleges that Celsus is an atheist and an Epicurean, who thus has no real belief in Æsculapius; which would suggest, if true, that the analogy drawn by Celsus between Æsculapius and Jesus draws attention to some doubt on the part of Celsus regarding the latter god's "existence."
Andrew Criddle
Good to know ....StephenGoranson wrote:If it is of interest, I wrote about the identity of Celsus and the Jewish character and Asclepius in a publication now online, searchable: "Celsus of Pergamum: Locating a Critic of Early Christianity," Ch. 30 in The Archaeology of Difference: Gender, Ethnicity, Class and the "Other" in Antiquity: Studies in Honor of Eric M. Meyers (AASOR 60/61, 2007).
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: The Identity of Celsus and His "Jew"
Hi Andrew and all. Lucian's Celsus (perhaps partly distinct from a 'literary construct" suggested by Clay pp. 3440-1?) may not have been a committed Epicurean. At the (later?) time of writing of Alethes Logos, Celsus may not (any longer?) have been a committed Epicurean (as Origen guessed) or may have made a rhetorical choice to write as a Platonist. Such arguments are embedded in a larger geographical argument which (in any case) locates Origen's Celsus (who shared some interests with Lucian's Celsus) in Pergamum, where there may be use for Occam's razor. Btw, fwiw, in Scholia in Lucianum, ed. Hugo Rabe, Leipzig, 1906, 180. 14-19 Lucian's (single-named) Celsus and Origen's (single-named) Celsus are identified as the same.