The Identity of Celsus and His "Jew"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

No I didn't. Come on, I am not like other people at this board.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

I never argued that Trypho was the Jew of Celsus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

My initial statement in that regard:
Celsus is using an original source, maybe even Philo (hence Origen not giving us the 'Jew's' name).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

I go where the evidence leads. My only presumption was that Origen like other later Church Fathers is a dishonest source (undoubtedly forced upon him by Demetrius and the Imperial authorities watching his every move).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

I thought you'd be impressed with my morning's research pulling out:

1. Celsus and Justin using the same gospel
2. Celsus's citation of the Gospel of Peter
3. the likely identification of Trypho as the 'Jew' of Celsus

I guess you can't please everyone.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18321
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

Paget makes the same tentative steps in connecting Trypho and the 'Jew of Celsus' https://books.google.com/books?id=AFLJ6 ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18321
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

Another agreement between Trypho and the 'Jew of Celsus' https://books.google.com/books?id=yOU_A ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18321
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

Another person who noticed the Perseus parallel in both sources - https://books.google.com/books?id=no4fA ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

Dāwid Rôqēaḥ is an abundance of information. First he notes that "Some scholars view Celsus's work, The True Word [Alethes Logos], as a reaction to the doctrine of Christ-as-Logos, as developed by Justin. See C. Andresen, Logos und Nomos: Die Polemik des Kelsos wider das Christentum, Berlin 1955." So this would explain that Justin is very much on Celsus's mind and why he would draw from his Jewish opponent Trypho." An important example brought up by the author:
Justin indicated the miracles that Jesus performed and that his disciples continue to perform in his name (Dialogue 35: 8), and stated that the prophecies present the Messiah as perfect and un- flawed, Trypho responded: "Granted that these things are as you have said [in Dialgoue 34: 2], and that it was foretold that Christ [= the Messiah] was destined to suffer, and to be called a stone, and that — after his first appearance, during which it was proclaimed that he was destined to suffer — he would come in glory and henceforth become the judge of all men, and [their] eternal priest and king — but [you must] prove that Jesus is the one of whom these things were prophesied" (Dialogue 36: 1). However, in the more than 100 chapters of the work which follow Trypho's demand for proof, Justin quotes many scriptural verses and offers his interpretations of them, but does not return to this topic at all, leaving Trypho's question unanswered. Justin seems not to have had any decisive, objective proof for the identification of Jesus as the Messiah on the basis of parallels between the biblical prophecies and the stories about Jesus in the Gospels, but his Christian audience did require proof on this point.

The anti-Christian pagan polemicist, Celsus, who was Justin's contemporary, refers to the question raised by Trypho." First, he presents a Jew who argues with Jesus's and the Christians' claim (see Origen, Against Celsus 2: 28) that one can more logically apply to thousands of other people the prophecies that the Christians apply to Jesus. https://books.google.com/books?id=fB34U ... ho&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Celsus and His "Jew" Offer Different Arguments?

Post by Secret Alias »

And again:
Trypho expresses his objections to the incarnation claim, and rejects the divinity of Jesus (68: 1; 48: 1). He requests proofs for the existence of another God (50: 1), and points out that the stories of the incarnation resemble pagan mythologies (Dial 67:2). We may note parenthetically that a similar argument is raised by Celsus's 'Jew' (The True Word 1: 37 end), who scoffs at the virgin birth of Jesus and compares it to the Greek myths about Danae, Melanipe, Auge, and Antiope (compare ibid., 3:22)
.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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