Paul's Letters: Did someone insert Christ into them later?

[lsayre]

I'm not an expert on Christianity like the rest of you who post here, and mostly I've been only a lurker, but in reading Paul it often seems to me that his references to Christ (or Jesus, or Christ Jesus, or Jesus Christ) are strained or otherwise awkward insertions, whereby the flow of the text is interrupted.

Here is an example:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 English Standard Version (ESV)

14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews

Is it possible that an earlier strata of non-Christain "Pauline" letters were at some juncture Christianized? Marcion comes to mind here as potentially the first of the interpolators, but perhaps many hands were later involved in this same practice.

Is there an existing thread here which actively probes this topic? (as if so, this one can be deleted)

[Giuseppe]

Suggestive, but Occam prohibits in favor of more simple explanation.

The need for an apostle last of all (= Paul) who becomes via special grace the first of all arises only when someone is already insisting that another apostle (=Peter) came before everyone else.

And the need for an apostle ''that came before everyone else'' (i.e.: Peter), arises only when someone is already saying for the first time that the first and unique people that saw Jesus on terra firma were so idiots as to believe that Jesus was truely the warrior Messiah son of YHWH.

[DCHindley]

I'm not an expert on Christianity like the rest of you who post here, and mostly I've been only a lurker, but in reading Paul it often seems to me that his references to Christ (or Jesus, or Christ Jesus, or Jesus Christ) are strained or otherwise awkward insertions, whereby the flow of the text is interrupted.

Here is an example:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 English Standard Version (ESV)

14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews

Is it possible that an earlier strata of non-Christain "Pauline" letters were at some juncture Christianized? Marcion comes to mind here as potentially the first of the interpolators, but perhaps many hands were later involved in this same practice.

Is there an existing thread here which actively probes this topic? (as if so, this one can be deleted)

lsayre

Hmmm ... I have been proposing something much like that for a little over 20 years (I think I came up with the concept in around 1991 but was not online with any depth until the mid 1990s).

It is almost an inverse of the approach taken by those who have previously suggested that the letters had been interpolated. They, as far as I can see, have taken positions where the Christ theology MUST be at the heart of any genuine letter, and anything Judaic is interpolation. Now I may easily have missed someone/something - I am not a formally trained scholar in Biblical Studies either- but I do pay attention to the details in what I read and would have expected myself to have at least made a mental note if I had seen something resembling my POV.

Some while back Ben Smith had allowed the 2003 version to be posted at his Text Excavation site, where you will find English language analysis of all 13 letters (not Hebrews). There were two columns, comparing RSV (with occasional modifications) on left, with suspected interpolations in the second column to right. There is also a file in which I explain my operating principals.

http://www.textexcavation.com/dch.html

Some of the analysis has been modified since then, but it will give you an idea of how such a thing can be approached. I had spent a while analyzing the analyses of proponents of Marcion as originator of the Pauline letters, and have come to the conclusion that I don't think he did. I am working on creating an Unicode Greek-English analysis of all 13 letters, but so far I have only Galatians, I Corinthians & most of Romans complete. The principal I am using seems to work well with the 13 letters of Paul, but not Hebrews or the General letters except 2 Peter (which does seem to follow a similar pattern of interpolation as in the 13 letters above, and even mentions how the letters of Paul can be "hard to interpret").

DCH (Ducking and covering ...)

[DCHindley]

Suggestive, but Occam prohibits in favor of more simple explanation.

The need for an apostle last of all (= Paul) who becomes via special grace the first of all arises only when someone is already insisting that another apostle (=Peter) came before everyone else.

And the need for an apostle ''that came before everyone else'' (i.e.: Peter), arises only when someone is already saying for the first time that the first and unique people that saw Jesus on terra firma were so idiots as to believe that Jesus was truely the warrior Messiah son of YHWH.

The problem with "Occam's razor" is that what someone considers to be "simpler" is often just a version of what they want to believe. That is, it is subjective, and thus worthless as a rule to follow. Besides, how do we know that all correct solutions tend to be the simplest ones? We don't. Talk to chemists and physicists. The most natural explanation for the movement of lights in the sky is that the earth is fixed and those lights are objects which revolve around us.

DCH

[Stuart]

I think quite the opposite, that the Assembly of God (ἐκκλησίᾳ is not the buildings, those are referred to as συναγωγή) were added later. Or rather τοῦ θεοῦ is an expansion in 1 & 2 Corinthians for example. We have plenty of examples of Paul saying the assembly of the saints or the assembly of those being in such-and-such a place (e.g., Colossi, Galatia, Corinth), who are faithful in Christ.

There would have been strong theological reasons to add God to the formula if the underlying text is of a Marcionite type, just as there would have been to add words like servant/slave and calling. These all concern the relationship of Jesus and the father, Paul and other apostles, and the structure of the ecclesiastical hierarchy.

[lsayre]

DCH, your provided website link will be of great help to me. I now know that I'm not alone in my thinking, as it is clear that you have traveled down this road well before me. Thanks for the link!!!

[MrMacSon]

... in reading Paul it often seems to me that his references to Christ (or Jesus, or Christ Jesus, or Jesus Christ) are strained or otherwise awkward insertions, whereby the flow of the text is interrupted.

Here is an example: 1 Thessalonians 2:14 (ESV)

"For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews"

Is it possible that an earlier strata of non-Christain "Pauline" letters were at some juncture Christianized? Marcion comes to mind here as potentially the first of the interpolators, but perhaps many hands were later involved in this same practice.

I've wondered the same thing. I wonder if some of the Pauline texts refer to pre-Christian communities such as pagan-mystery religions.

[toejam]

You should read Robert M. Price's "The Amazing Colossal Apostle", in which he spends a good chunk of time going through the Pauline epistles and giving his opinion on where editing may have happened. Price slices and dices the epistles to the point where "Paul" becomes indistinguishable. It all seems a bit speculative to me though.

[Clive]

The interpolation may not be Christ, but Jesus, and it may not be an interpolation if the writing school known as Paul were discussing an angelic human chimera known as Yahweh's saving anointed man.

[outhouse]

whereby the flow of the text is interrupted.

One thing often overlooked is these letters/gospels were not the product of one man, even the 7 attributed epistles.

These were for the most part a community effort, and how much or what percentage was even Pauls is not known.

So not having one straight forward view or opinion or theology or "flow" is the norm. There are general guidelines that can be followed in style that help us determine some differences, but none that shed light on complete authorship due to this community effort and possible evolution of the text.