A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

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Ben C. Smith
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A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

On my thread concerning where Christ dies in Hebrews, I have been discussing my own best mythicist reconstruction with Andrew Criddle and Peter Kirby (beginning with a response from the latter to my view on Hebrews).

In a nutshell, I think that the best mythicist option starts with a revelation that the Christ (the messiah) has already come to earth, been executed, and been exalted into heaven, with salvific consequences. My contention has been that this first revelation need not have contained any specific details as to the exact time and place (though I do prefer to think of the time as having been recent, due to statements in Paul and other early writers); that those details were added later as revelation filled them in; and that originally it was taken on faith that the events happened, and they were explicitly said to be hidden in some way.

Andrew and Peter both appear to think that, if the venue for this salvific activity were the earth, it would come with more details (apparently right from the start) as to time and place. I do not share such expectations, and would like on this thread to offer an analogy.

The analogy will not be perfect, not least because it does not involve a figure in whom very many people would wish to invest faith. But it occurs to me that there is a figure whose arrival has been prophesied in the scriptures, but who has not yet acted out the things for which he is supposed to become famous, and whom some Christians believe is already alive and living among us: the Antichrist.

(Never mind that the term Antichrist in the Bible does not refer to any one single apocalyptic figure; many of the Christians who believe that this figure is soon to appear on the stage of world events either do not stress out over such details or are using the title as a convenient shorthand.)

Speculation that the Antichrist has already been born is not a strictly modern phenomenon. Sulpicius Severus reports the following concerning Martin, bishop of Tours, in Dialogue 2.14, translated by Alexander Robert (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/35032.htm):

He told us, too, that there was no doubt but that Antichrist, having been conceived by an evil spirit, was already born, and had, by this time, reached the years of boyhood, while he would assume power as soon as he reached the proper age (non est dubium, quin antichristus malo spiritu conceptus iam natus esset, et iam in annis puerilibus constitutus, aetate legitima sumpturus imperium).

However, my own exposure to this notion comes from my childhood, most of which I spent in Christian circles of the kind likely to produce fans of Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt, both of whom have ventured forth speculations in this area (http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/boo ... christ.htm):

Hal Lindsey wrote in 1970 that he believed that the Antichrist was alive somewhere in the world. He repeated this belief in 1977 when he wrote that it was his "personal opinion" that "he's alive somewhere now. But he's not going to become this awesome figure that we nickname the Anti-Christ until Satan possesses him, and I don't believe that will occur until there is this 'mortal wound' from which he's raised up." In 1980 he restated this conviction by writing that "this man [Antichrist] is alive today—alive and waiting to come forth." ....

Not to be outdone, Dave Hunt voices a similar opinion: "Somewhere, at this very moment, on planet Earth, the antichrist is almost certainly alive—biding his time, awaiting his cue. Banal sensationalism? Far from it! That likelihood is based upon a sober evaluation of current events in relation to Bible prophecy. Already a mature man, he is probably active in politics, perhaps even an admired world leader whose name is almost daily on everyone's lips."

Notice the lack of specifics concerning where and when, except for the guess as to about how old this figure might be. Despite the confidence that the Antichrist has already been born, no details are forthcoming regarding where this birth might have taken place, or where he might be living right now.

Jerry Falwell has expressed a similar opinion, but he was willing to offer a current living area for the Antichrist, as well, not to mention even more specificity as to his current age (http://www.emmanuelenid.org/media-overv ... d858db65a1, PDF):

Jerry Falwell once made the announcement that he believed the Antichrist was alive, in his thirties, and was a man living in Europe.

Even these details are quite vague, of course. This is far, far from a biography.

All that is happening is that these Christian men are reading their Bibles and making educated guesses about the figure predicted therein, about how he is going to appear and usher in the great tribulation. I say educated because the interpretation of Bible prophesies, though often seeming virtually free of rules to outsiders, actually does come with certain guidelines and traditional procedures of which insiders instinctively are aware. I say guesses because even those guidelines and procedures have never guaranteed results with true predictive power.

For example, Lindsey probably derived his confidence that the Antichrist was already among us from his even greater confidence that all the Biblically predicted signs were pointing to the imminent apocalypse that he popularized in his book, The Late Great Planet Earth. Hunt was almost certainly shared the same motivation, and probably derived his description of the Antichrist as politically active from certain NT verses which imply that he is a leader. And Falwell probably felt empowered to guess that the Antichrist was living in Europe based on the common modern fundamentalist identification of the ten horns of Daniel 7.24 with a revived Roman empire embodied (somehow) by the European Union, whose number of member states is variously pressed into place as 10 (somehow: http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/page/the-10-nations).

I was never a Catholic, but apparently fundamentalists are not the only ones speculating that the Antichrist has already been born: http://www.texemarrs.com/062000/walkus.htm. Cardinal Giacomo Biffi derives his picture of the living, breathing embodiment of evil both from scriptural precedents and, apparently, from his own personal list of modern vices fit for such a nasty figure: vegetarianism, environmentalism, pacifism, and animal rights.

In all of these cases, the details are sparse because the scriptures revealing them are not exhaustively clear. Yet the venue is clearly earth, and the belief in this figure is very real (even if the confidence that this figure has already been born is not 100%).

I suggest that this is similar (not identical) to what I am imagining for the earliest Christians. They came to believe that the Christ had already acted in history, though secretly; they imagined this based on scriptural passages about Wisdom personified, the death of the righteous man, the suffering servant, the promise of the messiah, and possibly the seventy weeks (interpreted differently than modern critical scholars interpret it, naturally). They did not immediately have all the details. Some tradents may have been bolder than others in interpreting such details into the biography (like Falwell guessing Europe where Lindsay and Hunt were not so specific). Of course, Christ is a figure deemed worthy of faith and worship, whereas the Antichrist is just the opposite, so the tradents will have felt differently about their speculations than the fundamentalists about theirs. But still, the main point is that the details are vague because the scriptures are vague; that is what can happen when you base your beliefs on the scriptures (at least until the creative juices really start to flow and the sheer momentum of finding more details takes over).

Hopefully this helps put what I am suggesting into some perspective.

Ben.
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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

Post by Giuseppe »

Thanks for this post, Ben, very suggestive.

What do you think about the link Antichrist=the false Messiah Simon Bar Kochba ?

If the origin of AntiChrist Myth comes back to Christian image of Bar Kochba, this would have some effects on your thesis above?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

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Ben C. Smith wrote:On my thread concerning where Christ dies in Hebrews, I have been discussing my own best mythicist reconstruction with Andrew Criddle and Peter Kirby (beginning with a response from the latter to my view on Hebrews).

In a nutshell, I think that the best mythicist option starts with a revelation that the Christ (the messiah) has already come to earth, been executed, and been exalted into heaven, with salvific consequences. My contention has been that this first revelation need not have contained any specific details as to the exact time and place (though I do prefer to think of the time as having been recent, due to statements in Paul and other early writers); that those details were added later as revelation filled them in; and that originally it was taken on faith that the events happened, and they were explicitly said to be hidden in some way.

This is the early view of George Wells:

In the earliest documents (which do not include the gospels, which I give reason for dating from 90 to 110) Jesus figures simply as a supernatural personage whom God had sent in human form into the world to redeem it and who was crucified there in unspecified circumstances. These early writers are so vague in what they say about his life that they may well have believed only that he had been crucified in obscure circumstances long ago. I show that such a view is likely to have been suggested to them by the Jewish wisdom literature they knew well and by traditions they must have known concerning actual crucifixions of living men in Palestine one and two centuries before their time. And I argue that they were in fact probably wrong in believing this much of him. (The Historical Evidence for Jesus, 1988, p. 217–218).

<snip>
I suggest that this is similar (not identical) to what I am imagining for the earliest Christians. They came to believe that the Christ had already acted in history, though secretly; they imagined this based on scriptural passages about Wisdom personified, the death of the righteous man, the suffering servant, the promise of the messiah, and possibly the seventy weeks (interpreted differently than modern critical scholars interpret it, naturally). They did not immediately have all the details. Some tradents may have been bolder than others in interpreting such details into the biography (like Falwell guessing Europe where Lindsay and Hunt were not so specific). Of course, Christ is a figure deemed worthy of faith and worship, whereas the Antichrist is just the opposite, so the tradents will have felt differently about their speculations than the fundamentalists about theirs. But still, the main point is that the details are vague because the scriptures are vague; that is what can happen when you base your beliefs on the scriptures (at least until the creative juices really start to flow and the sheer momentum of finding more details takes over).

Hopefully this helps put what I am suggesting into some perspective.

Ben.
Are you suggesting that George Wells was in error when he wrote:


"In my first books on Jesus, I argued that the gospel Jesus is an entirely mythical expansion of the Jesus of the early epistles. The summary of the argument of the Jesus Legend (1996) and the Jesus Myth (1999) given in this section of the present work makes it clear that I no longer maintain this position. The weakness of my earlier position was pressed upon me by J.D.G. Dunn, who objected that we really cannot plausibly assume that such a complex of traditions as we have in the gospels and their sources could have developed within such a short time from the early epistles without a historical basis (Dunn, [The Evidence for Jesus] 1985, p. 29). My present standpoint is: this complex is not all post-Pauline (Q, or at any rate parts of it, may well be as early as ca. A.D. 50); and if I am right, against Doherty and Price - it is not all mythical. The essential point, as I see it, is that the Q material, whether or not it suffices as evidence of Jesus's historicity, refers to a personage who is not to be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles." (Can We Trust the NT?, 2004, pp. 49–50).

my bolding

Are you suggesting that because a mythicist holds the premise that there was no historical gospel Jesus (of whatever variant NT scholars come up with) that a mythicist cannot therefore uphold the relevance of history, of historical figures being relevant to the gospel writers in the creation of their gospel Jesus story?

Has the Carrier/Doherty mythicist theory attempted to hijack the very meaning of mythicism?
A mythicist is one who denies that Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. That this gospel figure was not a flesh and blood figure. A mythicist does not deny the relevance of history and historical figures, of flesh and blood, to the writers of the gospel story.

Wells correctly backtracked from his earlier position - Carrier and Doherty need to do likewise. Both Jesus figures, the Pauline and the gospel Jesus figures, are relevant to the NT story. A mythical Jesus, whether on earth or in heaven, is half the NT story. That is all Carrier and Doherty, in their various positions, have - half the story. Wells has two stories - flesh and blood in his preacher figure and spirit in his Pauline christ figure. History is fused with mythology. History is interpreted, given meaning, via a spiritual envisioning.

Ben, one can create possible scenarios re invisible entities - but I don't think those early christian writers would be happy to know that their NT story had so drastically been shortchanged...Cutting out the beating heart of the NT story is to kill the power, the potential, of it's theology/philosophy.
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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

Post by Giuseppe »

I would like to advance an audacious hypothesis, but which I do not believe it myself.

What if the concept of ''Antichrist'' came to represent originally precisely the mythical Jesus of those Christians who refused to believe in a just recent Gospel Jesus put in a historical context?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

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maryhelena wrote:Are you suggesting that George Wells was in error when he wrote:

"In my first books on Jesus, I argued that the gospel Jesus is an entirely mythical expansion of the Jesus of the early epistles. The summary of the argument of the Jesus Legend (1996) and the Jesus Myth (1999) given in this section of the present work makes it clear that I no longer maintain this position. The weakness of my earlier position was pressed upon me by J.D.G. Dunn, who objected that we really cannot plausibly assume that such a complex of traditions as we have in the gospels and their sources could have developed within such a short time from the early epistles without a historical basis (Dunn, [The Evidence for Jesus] 1985, p. 29). My present standpoint is: this complex is not all post-Pauline (Q, or at any rate parts of it, may well be as early as ca. A.D. 50); and if I am right, against Doherty and Price - it is not all mythical. The essential point, as I see it, is that the Q material, whether or not it suffices as evidence of Jesus's historicity, refers to a personage who is not to be identified with the dying and rising Christ of the early epistles." (Can We Trust the NT?, 2004, pp. 49–50).

my bolding

Are you suggesting that because a mythicist holds the premise that there was no historical gospel Jesus (of whatever variant NT scholars come up with) that a mythicist cannot therefore uphold the relevance of history, of historical figures being relevant to the gospel writers in the creation of their gospel Jesus story?
No, I am not suggesting that at all. Many historical streams may have poured details into the developing picture. (By analogy, I think some modern conceptions of the Antichrist have been affected by twentieth century dictators like Hitler and Stalin.)

But, even for Wells, revelation came first.
Has the Carrier/Doherty mythicist theory attempted to hijack the very meaning of mythicism?
I do not sense that Doherty himself has attempted to hijack the meaning. But I do think that his thesis took such a hold in some quarters that some mythicists assume one is arguing for historicity if earth figures into the equation at all; the Wells mythicist sometimes finds himself explaining that a myth set on earth is still a myth.

Not sure about Carrier. I am still catching up on his part in all of this... though I am starting to suspect that he has tried to hijack Doherty!

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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

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Giuseppe wrote:Thanks for this post, Ben, very suggestive.

What do you think about the link Antichrist=the false Messiah Simon Bar Kochba ?

If the origin of AntiChrist Myth comes back to Christian image of Bar Kochba, this would have some effects on your thesis above?
Well, none of the fundamentalists I mentioned in the OP would associate the Antichrist with Bar Kochba; so they would not fuel their speculations with details drawn from his career. But I can easily imagine earlier Christians (like Martin of Tours, whom I mentioned in the OP) basing some of their picture on Bar Kochba.

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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

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though I am starting to suspect that he has tried to hijack Doherty!
This is true only for 9/10 of OHJ. Because about ''the brother of Lord'' case I recognize frankly that Carrier has done decisively better than Doherty. And excuse me if this is few. . . :wtf:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

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I would reproach to Peter for not having mentioned - in addition to raising the possibility of anti-marcionite interpolation as a reason to doubt - in his The best Case for Jesus the splendid case made by Carrier (against the historicist interpretation of Galatians 1:19), because in my opinion Richard has shown truely that the probabilities pro Myth in that case are 2 against 1.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

Post by robert j »

Ben, I have rearranged excerpts from your OP to lead-in to my question. Hopefully I have not misrepresented your intent.
Ben C. Smith wrote: I suggest that this is similar (not identical) to what I am imagining for the earliest Christians. They came to believe that the Christ had already acted in history, though secretly; they imagined this based on scriptural passages about Wisdom personified, the death of the righteous man, the suffering servant, the promise of the messiah, and possibly the seventy weeks (interpreted differently than modern critical scholars interpret it, naturally). They did not immediately have all the details ...

But still, the main point is that the details are vague because the scriptures are vague; that is what can happen when you base your beliefs on the scriptures (at least until the creative juices really start to flow and the sheer momentum of finding more details takes over).

In a nutshell, I think that the best mythicist option starts with a revelation that the Christ (the messiah) has already come to earth, been executed, and been exalted into heaven, with salvific consequences. My contention has been that this first revelation need not have contained any specific details as to the exact time and place (though I do prefer to think of the time as having been recent, due to statements in Paul and other early writers) ...

Ben.
If Paul and the earliest Christians thought of the death and related events of Jesus Christ (from their perspective) as recent events, then they would have viewed the relevant passages in the scriptures as predictions of the far-off future.

What passages in Paul indicate that he thought the prophets were predicting events far into the future --- rather that revealing events that had occurred, or were occurring, or would occur soon in their own distant times?
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Re: A partial analogy for my best mythicist scenario?

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robert j wrote:Ben, I have rearranged excerpts from your OP to lead-in to my question. Hopefully I have not misrepresented your intent.
Ben C. Smith wrote: I suggest that this is similar (not identical) to what I am imagining for the earliest Christians. They came to believe that the Christ had already acted in history, though secretly; they imagined this based on scriptural passages about Wisdom personified, the death of the righteous man, the suffering servant, the promise of the messiah, and possibly the seventy weeks (interpreted differently than modern critical scholars interpret it, naturally). They did not immediately have all the details ...

But still, the main point is that the details are vague because the scriptures are vague; that is what can happen when you base your beliefs on the scriptures (at least until the creative juices really start to flow and the sheer momentum of finding more details takes over).

In a nutshell, I think that the best mythicist option starts with a revelation that the Christ (the messiah) has already come to earth, been executed, and been exalted into heaven, with salvific consequences. My contention has been that this first revelation need not have contained any specific details as to the exact time and place (though I do prefer to think of the time as having been recent, due to statements in Paul and other early writers) ...

Ben.
If Paul and the earliest Christians thought of the death and related events of Jesus Christ (from their perspective) as recent events, then they would have viewed the relevant passages in the scriptures as predictions of the far-off future.

What passages in Paul indicate that he thought the prophets were predicting events far into the future --- rather that revealing events that had occurred, or were occurring, or would occur soon in their own distant times?
I hope I am understanding your question; I will answer using the Pauline corpus that most modern scholars view as genuine (as opposed, say, to the Marcionite version of the epistles; if you want me to respond from Marcion or some other configuration, I will have to politely decline, since I am still working on all of that).

Here are passages that seem to indicate that Paul thought the scriptures were written with his own present time in mind. (Bear in mind that outright prediction is not always the thing, neither in Paul nor in my best reconstruction; sometimes the scriptures are seen as finding typological fulfillment in the present, with a definite view that God intended them to be read in that way.)

1 Corinthians 9.9-10 NASB:

9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops.

Romans 9.23-26 NASB:

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Galatians 3.8 NASB:

8 The Scripture, foreseeing [προϊδοῦσα] that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”

Romans 9.29 NASB:

29 And just as Isaiah foretold [προείρηκεν],
“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah.”

Romans 11.26-27 NASB:

26 ...and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

1 Corinthians 10.11 NASB:

11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Ben.
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