Mistery Pilate

[Giuseppe]

There is a particular story in Josephus that could explain the introduction of Pilate in the famous allegory.


BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.[/color]
(Josephus, Antiquities 18:55-62)


The pattern in first episode is the following:
1) Pilate presents something outrageous and alien, hostile to the Jews.
2) Jews are protesting en masse before Pilate.
3) Pilate insists, with acts of force.
4) but the Jews, exposing themselves to the risk of death, make him desist.


The patten in second episode is the following:
1) Pilate presents something outrageous and alien, hostile to the Jews.
2) Jews are protesting en masse before Pilate.
3) Pilate insists, with acts of force.
4) but the Jews, exposing themselves to the risk of death, all prefer to be massacred.

In our Gospels, the pattern is only apparently similar to first above (Pilate desists) ...

...but secunda facie, is DE FACTO similar to second pattern above: the crucifixion of Jesus is allegory of crucifixion en masse of all Israel (at 70 CE). The evangelical ''blood that falls on us and on our children'' is the same blood of Pilate in the aqueduct episode, the same Jewish blood shed by Titus in 70 CE.

Therefore, why the introduction of Pilate in the first gospel?

The Pilate episodes in Josephus are the the only incidents in Josephus where happens twice (!) a seemingly democratic dialectic between Roman prefect and Jews.

A dialectic that remembers all too well the corresponding evangelical dialectic.

But there is a particular that strikes in a second moment, where Josephus says:

Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time;

The event happening in ''the night time'' is in our gospels the Jewish process against Jesus. The topic of concealment (''without the knowledge of the people'') is found, needless to say, in the gospel.
Then Pilate introduces officially, daytime, Jesus before a crowd of Jews.

The evangelist could have noticed that Pilate was ''the first'' to introduce images of foreign deities (god-men emperors) to the Jews, so, since he wanted to present Jesus to the people as if he was another foreing deity (a god-man essentially foreign to the Jewish people, as much as were the busts of emperors for them), he chose to place the death of Jesus just under Pilate.

This ''foreignness'' can be constitutive of Jesus (and therefore suitable for an hypotetical original marcionite interpretation of the first gospel).

But:

1) since Pilate is introduced because the evangelist's goal underlines that Jesus was not really belonging to the people that would have condemned him (Jesus was so foreign to them as was a Roman emperor for them)

2) and since the ''people'' in question are the ''Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees'',

...then the ultimate dichotomy that the evangelist wants to establish is between the old Israel (tied to the Temple) and the new Israel (untied from the Temple).

MY CONCLUSION:
Definitively, the strong & radical opposition between the first evangelist's community and the Temple cult explains at the end the introduction of Pilate in his allegory.

[Giuseppe]

In practice, Josephus told of a Roman governor X which aroused strong frontal opposition in Jerusalem because he had introduced publicly for the first time symbols of foreign so-called gods, the emperors.

And the first evangelist (Mcn or Mark does not matter here) spoke of a Roman governor X which aroused strong frontal opposition in the elite of Jerusalem because he had introduced publicly for the first time a so-called Messiah, Jesus.

Both speak of the death of someone, just after their corresponding stories.

The parallels decisive totaled 6:

same governor;
same name;
same location;
same reason of agitation;
same frontal opposition;
same final death of someone.

The probability that the name of Pilate is found in both stories is really high. Think : if the Gospels had not mentioned Pilate but in his place the Roman governor Felix, which would be the likelihood that the other five parallels are still present at the same time in the Gospels and Josephus (relatively to Felix)?

Best Answer: close to zero.

[Giuseppe]

Antiquities 18:55-62

Luke 23:1-25

BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king.” So Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied. Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no basis for a charge against this man.” But they insisted, “He stirs up the people all over Judea by his teaching. He started in Galilee and has come all the way here.” On hearing this, Pilate asked if the man was a Galilean. When he learned that Jesus was under Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time. When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform a sign of some sort. He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate. That day Herod and Pilate became friends—before this they had been enemies. Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, and said to them, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. Therefore, I will punish him and then release him.” But the whole crowd shouted, “Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us!” (Barabbas had been thrown into prison for an insurrection in the city, and for murder.) Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!” For the third time he spoke to them: “Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him.” But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. So Pilate decided to grant their demand. He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will.

Note that for three times Pilate insists in both the stories.

Note that the evangelist has replaced the ''emperor'' with ''Herod'', in both the cases the reason is the same (not offend those responsible).

[Giuseppe]

Antiquities 18:55-62

Matthew 27:11-26

BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied. When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, “Don’t you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?” But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge—to the great amazement of the governor. Now it was the governor’s custom at the festival to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus Barabbas. So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?” For he knew it was out of self-interest that they had handed Jesus over to him. While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.” But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed. “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor. “Barabbas,” they answered. “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked. They all answered, “Crucify him!” “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!” When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!” All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!” Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Note that Matthew has converted the last insistence of Pilate in Luke in a theatrical gesture of renunciation that acts still subtly as weak ''insistence'' (as a kind of extrema ratio to persuade Jews from their omicide intentions), so even the last replica of the Jews -- “His blood is on us and on our children!”-- is to be understood as a proper reaction to the third insistence of Pilate.

[Giuseppe]

Antiquities 18:55-62

Mark 15:1-15

BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, made their plans. So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate. “Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “You have said so,” Jesus replied. The chief priests accused him of many things. So again Pilate asked him, “Aren’t you going to answer? See how many things they are accusing you of.” But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed. Now it was the custom at the festival to release a prisoner whom the people requested. A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising. The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did. “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, knowing it was out of self-interest that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead. “What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them. “Crucify him!” they shouted. “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!” Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Note that Mark has 1 insistence in less by part of Pilate at start. In place of the crowd, is Jesus that ''insists'' against Pilate by his silence. Mark is raising so an implicit identification Jesus=crowd: Jesus that insists in silence is allegorically the same crowd that insists shouting 'crucify him!'. In this way the insistences are 3 by Pilate and 3 by Jesus/crowd (1 of Jesus + 2 of crowd).
Considering that Jesus is allegory of Israel in Mark (therefore, in that specific case, allegory of the same crowd that wants the death of Jesus!), then the final of both stories is the killing of Israel: Pilate kills the riotous of Jerusalem after the acqueduct episode (Antiquities 18:62), Titus kills the Jews en masse in 70 CE, and all this is reflected in Mark with the crucifixion of Jesus.

[Giuseppe]

It's not based on evidence the usual "explanation" that Pilate was sadic therefore the Jews had to be bad so that the Romans are good and not the true killers of Jesus. At contrary, the parallelisms above prove that Pilate was chosen and introduced in the narrative because of his apparent democratic openness to the people's needs, ended in massacre because of the same Jewish obstination.

[Giuseppe]

Luke 23:6-9 is present in the gospel of Marcion. It cannot be a coincidence that just Pilate that appeals to Herod is the same Pilate that in Josephus appeals to Caesar against the Jews.
Question: the midrash from this episode in Josephus reveals that the first evangelist wrote probably after the 100 CE and had a clear Christian identity.

[Giuseppe]

The strongest point in support of the possibility of this midrash from Josephus is here:

On hearing this, Pilate asked if the man was a Galilean. When he learned that Jesus was under Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.
(Luke 23:6-9)

that would become the midrash precisely of this original source in Josephus:

....and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request...
(from Antiquities of the Jews 18)

It's curious that exactly those verses of Luke are attested in the Earliest Gospel (Mcn).

It's too improbable, as coincidence, that the historical Pilate brings himself to appeal to the Emperor to persuade Jews to fear his decision and to accept it, while the Gospel Pilate decided, in order to save Jesus from Jews, to appeal to Herod taking advantage of the loophole that Jesus came from Galilee.

What means all this?

Pontius Pilate was introduced because he was a perfect example of a Roman governor who had succumbed to the insistence of the Jews of Jerusalem with regard to the introduction of so-called symbols of foreign ''gods''.
But as the episode of the busts of emperors told by Josephus is a credit to the insistence of the Jews in their tenacious protest to Pilate (as proof of their loyalty to their traditions and laws), the point of the evangelist is exactly antithetical to that of Josephus : being forced by their laws and traditions (definitively not divine) the Jews insist before Pilate not for a good cause (as it could be rejecting the idolatrous images of the emperors) but for an unjust cause (condemn to death the Son of God).

The result is a condemnation of the same traditions and laws which led the Jews of Jerusalem to stand protesting against Jesus before Pilate.

This means that Pilate is a simple literary appearance in the Gospel story.

The probability that the same historical Pilate that lent itself so well to convey symbolically the theological point just described (behind the midrash from Antiquity 18:55-62) was coincidentally the same historical Pilate that crucified Jesus is minimal. There would be good divine planning here.

So I found evidence that Pilate didn't crucify Jesus.

So the Roman crucifixion of Jesus is an invention of the evangelist.

[Peter Kirby]

It's too improbable, as coincidence, that the historical Pilate brings himself to appeal to the Emperor to persuade Jews to fear his decision and to accept it, while the Gospel Pilate decided, in order to save Jesus from Jews, to appeal to Herod taking advantage of the loophole that Jesus came from Galilee.

I don't think you completely understand the mathematics that should be used to determine whether you are actually dealing with an anomaly that requires an explanation, or the kind of coincidence that must happen--because it is highly unlikely for so-called 'unlikely' coincidences to happen all the time.

You would have to start with measurements of the entire population involved. The 'population'-s here would be the entire corpus of Luke and the entire corpus of Josephus. After measuring these populations, you'd want to know how many 'unlikely coincidences' we should expect, statistically--one, two, five, three thousand? Get working...

Or, on the other hand, if we can't get large-enough sample sizes (by narrowing the population too far--say, to statements about Pilate), we may not have enough data to work with, in order to be able to know whether the observation is statistically significant.

(As far as 'gut feeling' goes, yours is very strange. You come up with weird crap every week on this forum. And move on to other weird crap with happy abandon.)

[Giuseppe]

Basing on my modest knowledge, I think with relative certainty that what I'm doing here is not different from what do these (few) scholars that argue until today for specific gospel midrash dependences from Josephus.

About your question:

The 'population'-s here would be the entire corpus of Luke and the entire corpus of Josephus. After measuring these populations, you'd want to know how many 'unlikely coincidences' we should expect, statistically--one, two, five, three thousand? Get working...

The large silence about 'unlikely coincidences' of such kind talks already in support of my thesis. The proof: how often you learn a new theory linking Josephus to the Gospels in the way I just did (and with the same lot of parallelisms) ? My answer: never listened something of similar.

Even the Detering's attempt of linking Simon said Atomus in Josephus to the Paul of Acts is a vanishing point by comparison with the parallels that I found myself (remember that Detering needs the ''Criterion of Embarrassment'' in order to argue that Acts converts a debt of Simon Atomus with Felix in a credit of 'Paul' with Felix and Drusilla: not precisely a good hermeneutical tool).