New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

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ficino
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New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by ficino »

Some of you may be interested in this book, the title of which I just saw announced:

Cook, John Granger. Crucifixion in the Mediterranean world. Wissenschaftliche Untersuchungen zum Neuen Testament 327. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2015. xxiv, 522 p. € 69.00 (pb). ISBN 9783161537646.
iskander
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by iskander »

ficino wrote:
iskander wrote:Why would anyone be interested ?
There have been people on this site who have discussed evidence on, and scholarship about, crucifixion, for reasons known to them. If you can't comprehend why anyone would be interested, that's your loss.
Crucifixion was discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=539&p=9833&hilit=cicero#p9833
and here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=528&p=9772&hilit=cicero#p9772

Samuelsson was the book discussed in the first link and this is a review of that book.

Samuelsson, G., Crucifixion in Antiquity. An Inquiry into the Background of the New Testament Terminology of Crucifixion, WUNT 2/310, Tübingen 2013 (second edition).
Gunnar Samuelsson, in a very able study of the problem of crucifixion in the era before the New Testament, comes to many skeptical conclusions that must be addressed by any subsequent scholar in the field. See, e.g., J. G. Cook, review of Samuelsson, Crucifixion in: Review of Biblical Literature 04/2014 (http://www.bookreviews.org).

PS : They Were Only Playing Leapfrog From Oh What A Lovely War!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bahJ1eVOELY
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DCHindley
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by DCHindley »

ficino wrote:Some of you may be interested in this book, the title of which I just saw announced:

Cook, John Granger. Crucifixion in the Mediterranean world. Wissenschaftliche Untersuchungen zum Neuen Testament 327. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2015. xxiv, 522 p. € 69.00 (pb). ISBN 9783161537646.
Golly, I'm interested. What, though, does this book add to our knowledge of ancient crucifixion practices? Previously I was surprised to learn that virtually everything we think we "know" about ancient crucifixions is early Christian exegesis based on certain (initially unrelated) passages in the Lxx. I think it may have been David Chapman, Ancient Jewish and Christian Perceptions of Crucifixion (2008) but that work does not seem to capture the "uumph!" I felt from whatever article I did read it in.

If these very specific details can be manufactured so easily from just about any Lxx passage one cares to associate with Jesus' crucifixion, will it really matter whether actual executions via crucifixion usually involved a X, T or †, or a titulus describing charges, and if so how many languages it was in, and which ones, or whether there was a seat, even one that poked Jesus in the rear end, or whether he was strung up with rope or nailed to it through his hands/wrists, feet, etc?

Perhaps this is what Iskander refers? Is Granger's book seeking to answer the question of just how historical Jesus' crucifixion can be taken to be, or an attempt to reinforce one of the multitude of traditional fabrications about how it must have been for Jesus?

Jus' curious.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maryhelena
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by maryhelena »

ficino wrote:Some of you may be interested in this book, the title of which I just saw announced:

Cook, John Granger. Crucifixion in the Mediterranean world. Wissenschaftliche Untersuchungen zum Neuen Testament 327. Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2015. xxiv, 522 p. € 69.00 (pb). ISBN 9783161537646.
Here is a link to a pdf article by Granger:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/201 ... 8003.shtml


Book Review: Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World


http://diglotting.com/2014/08/27/book-r ... ean-world/

A new book on crucifixion by David Chapman (author of the earlier Ancient Jewish and Christian Perceptions of Crucifixion)

DAVID W. CHAPMAN / ECKHARD J. SCHNABEL
The Trial and Crucifixion of Jesus
Texts and Commentary
2015

''The purpose of this comprehensive sourcebook by David W. Chapman and Eckhard J. Schnabel is to publish the extra-biblical primary texts that have been cited as relevant for understanding Jesus' trial and crucifixion. The texts in the first part deal with Jesus' trial and interrogation before the Sanhedrin, and the texts in the second part concern Jesus' trial before Pilate. The texts in part three represent crucifixion as a method of execution in antiquity. For each document the authors provide the original text (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, etc.), a translation, and commentary. The commentary describes the literary context and the purpose of each document in context before details are clarified, along with observations on the contribution of these texts to understanding Jesus' trial and crucifixion.''

https://www.mohr.de/en/buch/the-trial-a ... 3161537868
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jayraskin
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by jayraskin »

It is an interesting topic. I don't believe that the cross symbol had anything to do with crucifixion. It seems that the cross symbol has its own history, quite separate from the history of crucifixion. There is no evidence that crosses were ever used in crucifixions. There were no proscribed methods for crucifixion and the cross symbol would be extremely problematical to use in any crucifixion.
Some time in the Fourth century, it appears the cross symbol was associated with crucifixion.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
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DCHindley
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by DCHindley »

jayraskin wrote:It is an interesting topic. ... Some time in the Fourth century, it appears the cross symbol was associated with crucifixion.
Hi Jay!

I wonder if the adoption of the "T" shape was related to the number symbolism found in epistle of Barnabas, in which the number of the members of Abraham's household who circumcised themselves is teased out of Genesis and given a life of its own.

In Barnabas 9 there is an exegesis of Genesis (the 318 men Abraham had circumcised from his household - teased out of Genesis 14 & 17). The number 18 is gematria for the Greek letters I (iota) & E (eta), interpreted as "Jesus," plus 300 for the Greek letter T (tau), representing the cross.

This is the "pesher" style interpretation of current events, where the memory of the event(s) are augmented, and even changed, by drawing parallels to OT accounts.

My guess would be that about 90% of what we think we know about the life and teaching of Jesus is really fabricated from these allusions to OT passages. That doesn't mean he didn't ever exist, but I think most folks would simply not recognize him because he would be so different from what we want to think he was like.

Think of the statement of George Tyrell: "The Christ that Adolf Harnack sees, looking back through nineteen centuries of Catholic darkness, is only the reflection of a liberal Protestant face, seen at the bottom of a deep well." (Christianity at the Crossroads, p 49)

DCH (lunch is over, thank you)
Secret Alias
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by Secret Alias »

Justin is the oldest witness and it was X shaped.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
jayraskin
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by jayraskin »

Hi DCHindley,

The numbers hypothesis seems quite possible.
I would tend to agree with the 90% from Old Testament interpretation and probably 10% from random historical events mixed together.
Note the Puteoli Graffito which is put forward by madmen, excuse me, Biblical Scholars, as the best evidence for crucifixion on a cross in antiquity:
Image Show it to some people without telling them what it is and you will get dozens of different answers, but nobody but a Biblical Scholar would imagine it as a man or a man being crucified.

Warmly,
Jay Raskin
DCHindley wrote:
jayraskin wrote:It is an interesting topic. ... Some time in the Fourth century, it appears the cross symbol was associated with crucifixion.
Hi Jay!

I wonder if the adoption of the "T" shape was related to the number symbolism found in epistle of Barnabas, in which the number of the members of Abraham's household who circumcised themselves is teased out of Genesis and given a life of its own.

In Barnabas 9 there is an exegesis of Genesis (the 318 men Abraham had circumcised from his household - teased out of Genesis 14 & 17). The number 18 is gematria for the Greek letters I (iota) & E (eta), interpreted as "Jesus," plus 300 for the Greek letter T (tau), representing the cross.

This is the "pesher" style interpretation of current events, where the memory of the event(s) are augmented, and even changed, by drawing parallels to OT accounts.

My guess would be that about 90% of what we think we know about the life and teaching of Jesus is really fabricated from these allusions to OT passages. That doesn't mean he didn't ever exist, but I think most folks would simply not recognize him because he would be so different from what we want to think he was like.

Think of the statement of George Tyrell: "The Christ that Adolf Harnack sees, looking back through nineteen centuries of Catholic darkness, is only the reflection of a liberal Protestant face, seen at the bottom of a deep well." (Christianity at the Crossroads, p 49)

DCH (lunch is over, thank you)
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote:I wonder if the adoption of the "T" shape was related to the number symbolism found in epistle of Barnabas, in which the number of the members of Abraham's household who circumcised themselves is teased out of Genesis and given a life of its own.
Here are some references to crucifixion that might be applicable to the question at hand.

Seneca the Younger, Moral Essays 6.20, to Marcia on consolation (century I):

I see before me crosses not all alike, but differently made by different peoples: some hang a man head downwards, some force a stick upwards through his groin, some stretch out his arms on a forked gibbet. I see cords, scourges, and instruments of torture for each limb and each joint; but I see death also.

Josephus, Wars of the Jews 5.11.1 §451 (century I):
προσήλουν δὲ οἱ στρατιῶται δι᾽ ὀργὴν καὶ μῖσος τοὺς ἁλόντας ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι πρὸς χλεύην, καὶ διὰ τὸ πλῆθος χώρα τε ἐνέλειπε τοῖς σταυροῖς καὶ σταυροὶ τοῖς σώμασιν. / So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies.

Those two descriptions imply a lot of variety in the methods.

As for a specific method involving a crossbeam, you already mentioned Barnabas 9.7 (late century I or early century II):

For the scripture saith; And Abraham circumcised of his household eighteen males and three hundred. What then was the knowledge given unto him? Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I' stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS). And because the cross in the 'T' was to have grace, He saith also three hundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross.

Refer also to Barnabas 12.2:

And He saith again in Moses, when war was waged against Israel by men of another nation, and that He might remind them when the war was waged against them that for their sins they were delivered unto death; the Spirit saith to the heart of Moses, that he should make a type of the cross and of Him that was to suffer, that unless, saith He, they shall set their hope on Him, war shall be waged against them for ever. Moses therefore pileth arms one upon another in the midst of the encounter, and standing on higher ground than any he stretched out his hands, and so Israel was again victorious. Then, whenever he lowered them, they were slain with the sword.

We find this spreading of hands in Odes of Solomon 27.1-3 (century II):

I extended my hands and hallowed my Lord,
For the expansion of my hands is His sign.
And my extension is the upright cross. Hallelujah.

That goes for Artemidorus Daldianus, too, in Oneirocritica 1.76 (century II):

κακούργος δὲ ὦν σταυρωθήσεται διὰ τὸ ὕψος καὶ τὴν τῶν χειρῶν ἔκτασιν. / Since he is a criminal, he will be crucified in his height and in the extension of his hands.

Justin Martyr seems to envision a crossbeam type of crucifixion in Dialogue With Trypho 40 (century II):

God does not permit the lamb of the Passover to be sacrificed in any other place than where His name was named; knowing that the days will come, after the suffering of Christ, when even the place in Jerusalem shall be given over to your enemies, and all the offerings, in short, shall cease; and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.

Lucian, like Barnabas, compares the cross to the letter Tau in Court of Vowels 12 (century II):

Such are his verbal offences against man; his offences in deed remain. Men weep, and bewail their lot, and curse Cadmus with many curses for introducing Tau into the family of letters; they say it was his body that tyrants took for a model, his shape that they imitated, when they set up the erections on which men are crucified.

Pseudo-Manetho, Apotelesmatica 4.198, as cited on page 9 of Martin Hengel, Crucifixion in the Ancient World:

Punished with limbs outstretched, they see the stake as their fate; they are fastened (and) nailed to it in the most bitter torment, evil food for birds of prey and grim pickings for dogs.

Assuming that Christians had no specific memory of the exact shape of the cross, I think they might well have followed clues from the gospel accounts to arrive at a stake with a crossbeam. First, John 21.18-19 seems to describe Peter's eventual death (traditionally a crucifixion) as involving a stretching out of his hands. Second, the hand nails are plural (ἥλων) in John 20.25, which may be taken as implying a crossbeam, which would entail one nail per hand, rather than (for example) a simple stake upon which both upright hands might be nailed together. Third, both Matthew 27.37 and Luke 22.38, in one of the minor agreements against Mark, have the written notice posted above Jesus, which may be taken to imply the lowercase t shape of cross and its vertical extension above the crossbeam. (Whether the gospel authors themselves intended to imply such a shape of cross is, strictly speaking, a separate question from how the accounts might be read later.)

Ben.
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jayraskin
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Re: New book on crucifixion in the ancient world

Post by jayraskin »

Hi Ben,

I think there is some suspicious translations in these examples. Take, for example Barnabas 9.7
'For the scripture saith; And Abraham circumcised of his household eighteen males and three hundred. What then was the knowledge given unto him? Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I' stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS). And because the cross in the 'T' was to have grace, He saith also three hundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross."
We should look at the context of this:
9:6 But he will say, Of a truth the people have been
circumcised for a seal unto them; but so, also, hath
every Syrian and Arabian, and all the priests of
idols. Do they also belong to the covenant? But the
Egyptians also are in circumcision.
9:7 Learn, therefore, children of love, richly
concerning all things, that Abraham, who first gave
circumcision, circumcised, looking forward in the
spirit unto Jesus, having received the doctrines of
the three letters.
9:8 For he saith, And Abraham circumcised out of his
household eighteen and three hundred. What, then, was
the knowledge that was given by this? Learn ye, that
he mentioneth the eighteen first, and then, having
made an interval, he mentioneth the three hundred. In
the eighteen, IH, you have Jesus; and because the
cross in the letter T was about to convey the grace of
redemption, he mentioneth also the three hundred.
Therefore, he showeth Jesus in the two letters, IH,
and the cross in the one, T."
The point is that not everybody circumcised in the flesh is attached to God. It does not make sense to see any reference to the Jesus crucifixion tale here. Rather we should assume that the word "Stavros" (stake, cross) should mean something like "attachment by force" as a Stavros - stake, is a thing that attaches by force. Thus we can translate it to make sense this way, with the red standing for the actual meaning and the blue standing for the mistaken translation:
'For the scripture saith; And Abraham circumcised of his household eighteen males and three hundred. What then was the knowledge given unto him? Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I' stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS)IH. And because the cross attachment by force in the ' T 300 was to have grace, He saith also three hundred. So He revealeth IE eighteen in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross the attachment by force.
"

Thus the author was contrasting the actual small elite and legitimate group - the 18 who were circumcised with the large illegitimate group, the 300, who was attached by force through circumcision. By mistranslating the words "stavros" as "cross" instead of attachment by force and the "IH" as Jesus instead of the number 18, and the "T" as the letter Tau instead of the number 300, we get a reference to the Jesus New Testament tale that was not in the original text.

Warmly,
Jay Raskin
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