Secret Alias wrote:
In order for Richard Carrier's theory to be true you'd have to demonstrate that 'Joshua' was understood to be the name of an angel by early Jews.
Which "early Jews"?
Besides, aren't we talking about a later elaboration on the stories? i.e. 1st C AD/CE
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Although Philo may possibly have had messianic concerns there is little explicit in his writings. Rewards and Punishments
Some will even flee when no one pursues at all except fear, turning their backs towards the enemy, so as to afford a full mark for shooting, so that it will be very easy for the whole army to fall, being slain to a man; for a man will come forth, {#numbers 24:7.} says the word of God, leading a host and warring furiously, who will subdue great and populous nations, God sending that assistance which is suitable for pious men; and this assistance is an intrepid hardihood of soul, and an irresistible strength of body, either of which things is formidable to the enemy, and if both qualities are united they are completely invincible.
which quotes from Balaam's prophecy, may be the most relevant but it is not very relevant IMO.
ne.tser (n_t.ser / natser / natsar) is the root word of Nazareth -
Natzeret is the word netzer plus the feminine ending, designated by the letter Tav
and Nazeroth is the feminine-plural
But that's what's wrong with all dogmatic people. What you have done is present ONE POSSIBLE etymology for Nazareth. There are others and none is entirely convincing. So we have to suspend judgement instead of rushing headlong into endless conjecture built upon conjecture
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Balaam was hired by Balak to curse the Israelites.
In Numbers 24:7 Balaam is, instead, blessing the Israelites as he speaks the words God put in his mouth .
Numbers 24
1.Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel; so he did not go in search of omens as he had done time and time again, but turned his face toward the desert.
2.Balaam raised his eyes and saw Israel dwelling according to its tribes, and the spirit of God rested upon him.
3.He took up his parable and said, "The word of Balaam the son of Beor and the word of the man with an open eye.
...
9 He crouched, he lay down like a lion,
and like a lioness; who will rouse him up?
Blessed is everyone who blesses you,
and cursed is everyone who curses you.’
10 Then Balak’s anger was kindled against Balaam, and he struck his hands together. Balak said to Balaam, ‘I summoned you to curse my enemies, but instead you have blessed them these three times
Num 24 is not a sort of ' divine weather forecast ' aka a prophecy. It is a blessing . There is neither messiah nor prophecy in 24, but only the record of god blessing the Israelites.
Secret Alias, 99% of the things you write about me I find true. But for 1% I insist I am right.
My thesis is that Matt 2:23 is based on Zech 6:12.
In short:
I follow already Adamczewski where he finds a link between being ''of Nazaret'' and being of davidic origin.
Adamczewski can explain why Bartimeus, for the only fact that Jesus is Nazarene, hailed him as Son of David.
What Adamzcewski can not explain, yet, is WHY the evangelist puts the allusion to messianic origin in the ethymology of a place of provenance (Nazaret in the meaning of Branch/Shoot of David). If already Bethlehem works as place of origin of the messiah, what serves Nazaret?
At this point enters Zech 6:12.
In his original language (aramaic or Hebrew or Ostrogoto doesn't matter, for me), ANATOLE means ''Branch'', ''Shoot'' and is a symbol of the future davidic messiah.
In Greek of Septuaginta, ANATOLE can mean East (meaning prima facie a place, but the snapshot of an act of growth, of raising, too*).
Now, Philo and Matthew, independently one with the other, seem know the interchangeable use of ANATOLE as meaning now a geographical place and now a messianic allusion. It's a big mistake to think that Philo was ignorant about the Hebrew Bible and knew only the Septuaginta.
For example, Matthew makes the Magi come from ANATOLE, following the messianic Star from ANATOLE. Simon Bar Kochba was named 'son of the star'' therefore the star here is a messianic symbol and thus ANATOLE is used messianically in Matthew, when referred to the provenance of the Star. (The Magi find their anti-type in Balak/Balaam the 'magus from ANATOLE' : read the quotes of the book above, please).
For example, Philo makes the Eden (a geographical place) be at ANATOLE, from where come the archangelic-Messiah LOGOS (in turn named ''ANATOLE'' meaning here the MESSIAH) and the anti-Messiah magician ''Balaam'' (in turn from ANATOLE used as place of provenance but with anti-messianic allusions).
I assume obviously you recognize the results of the book quoted above.
At this point my thesis has sufficient explanatory power to explain WHY Matthew converted in a term of geographical provenance (''Nazarene'': ''of Nazaret'') his deliberate allusion to davidic messiah or BRANCH/SHOOT : Matthew was playing on the interchangeable use of ANATOLE meaning in Greek a cardinal point, the EAST (and the snapshot of an act of growth, of raising, too*), while in the original Hebrew meaning BRANCH/SHOOT.
Matthew uses the plural ''prophets'' because Moses's prophecies were recorded by his companions + Zech 6:12.
* (note that Jesus is born in Bethelehem, but he is raised/grown in Nazaret).
As you can see, I don't need to suppose that Matthew did copy from Philo. The link ANATOLE/BRANCH/STAR was common to all the traditions.
Please, I hope you are more possible open to my case.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
I think it is reasonably certain that 'Jesus' was identified as 'the Nazarene' initially in the gospel and that this identification was later connected with Nazareth.
This is false, in my eyes. Who coined the term 'Nazarene' was the same person that invented 'Nazaret'. This is my view.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe wrote:
Who coined the term 'Nazarene' was the same person that invented 'Nazaret'. This is my view.
RT France pointed out that Matthew gives Nazorean as Ναζωραῖος which is similar to what the Septuagint gave "Nazirite" as - i.e. ναζιραιον
France, RT. The Gospel of Matthew, pp. 92-93.
and Nazirite/Nazarite, which comes from nazir (which, in turn, comes from net.ser) means (i) under a vow; (ii) consecrated; (iii) vow of 'separation'; or (iv) crowned
Two examples of *Nazirites* in the Hebrew Bible are Samson (Judges 13:5), and Samuel (1 Samuel 1:11).
In the first case [Samson], God sent an angel to make the vow known to the mother for her not-yet-conceived son of what He wanted the child to be like in his life (see Judges 13:3–5),
and Nazirite/Nazarite, which comes from nazir (which, in turn, comes from net.ser) means (i) under a vow; (ii) consecrated; (iii) vow of 'separation'; or (iv) crowned
Well: Matthew says that this presumed 'Nazirite' or 'consecrated' went to prostitutes, gluttons and drunkards. Not precisely what is expected by a 'Nazirite'. Therefore: depart as mere falsity from the the claim of this Secret Alias:
But that's what's wrong with all dogmatic people. What you have done is present ONE POSSIBLE etymology for Nazareth. There are others and none is entirely convincing. So we have to suspend judgement instead of rushing headlong into endless conjecture built upon conjecture
This is simply bad scholarship.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
You obviously have very little shame or simply too stupid to realize what a jackass you are making of yourself.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
