Horizontal Synoptic Solution

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Adam
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Re: Horizontal Synoptic Solution

Post by Adam »

I have finally found some detailed information from X. Leon-dufour on Antonio Gaboury:
http://archive.org/stream/perspective19 ... t_djvu.txt

It's on pg 9-30 of a 1970 book available on the internet. I'll give it intense study, but to the extent it's a proto-gospel theory, it's that there was one big source that parallels in order for all the gospels all but Mark 1:14 to 6:13, with three small source in the middle that got weaved around differently. It seems more like a source theory than a proto-gospel theory like mine. Here again my hypothesis needs to be examined on its own terms and not by whether someone else agrees with it
Edited to add:
I spoke too quickly. They speak the very word "evolved" that is key to my latest iteration. On Page 16-17 Leon-Dufour says
Very sensibly, Gaboury does not imagine that these three sources
reached our Evangelists in a separate state, or that they were
unique. The Evangelists knew section C in which there was, al-
ready integrated, one or other of the sources of D; Luke knew a
copy of C less evolved than that which was at the disposal of
Matthew and Mark, and the same can be said for source A'. With
regard to C, Mark is like Matthew; but with regard to B, he is like
Luke. Finally Matthew seems to have known B in a less advanced
state, still not fused with A. Each of the Evangelists has ordered
his material in connection with one of these sources: Matthew in
connection with A, Mark and Luke in connection with B. Even if
the final details cannot be provided on the form of the sources
which were immediately at the Evangelists' disposal, the reliability
of the critical work of Redaktionsgeschichte is greater than in the
hypothesis which places Mark at the source of the Threefold Tra-
dition.
Code "C" above is the proto-gospel, D is the looser part split into B and two forms of "A" text.
But the Devil is in the details, as he notes in the final sentence here. My details neither correspond well nor conflict badly with Gaboury. I can't just stand on his work, but correspondingly I'm not refuted by any disproof of his work (if there is any).
Adam
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Evolving-Grundschrift Hypothesis

Post by Adam »

Antonio Gaboury may have some insight on three minor sources within the Synoptics that were moved around in the three Synoptics, but even if so I would think that one or more of them would have some relationship to the main stable Grundschrift in which they became encased (between Mark 1:13 and 6:14 and as paralleled in the other two). Where did the larger, earlier(?), stable base arise? It probably had several sources as well, but that had formed attachments that lasted? Wouldn't each of these latter have written other material separately (like a little later) that wouldn't have attached in final form right away, but instead be one (or more) of the three floating sources?

I'm just saying. However,my research indicates that the nature of the inner floating material is similar to the fixed outer framework. My Evolving-Grundschrift Hypothesis does indeed teach that the many writers of the Grundschrift the Synoptic writers employed indeed altered some of it. These alterations we can detect as the most verbally exact parallels in the Synoptics, most notably the sequences of verses identical between Matthew and Luke. I don't think I am going to wind up citing Vaganay, Cerfaux, Leon-Dufour, Gaboury, Hultgren, or Humphrey, not even for closely related ideas.
Adam
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Horizontal Hypothesis Occam's Razor Interlude

Post by Adam »

Recapitulating earlier developments (in Colorado) essential to my current “Evolving-Grundschrift Hypothesis”:
11/27/13
The Horizontal Hypothesis in my Occam’s Razor version depends upon Mark copying from the Q1 and Q2 texts that fed into Matthew. Luke depends upon the in-process Grundschrift that included Q1 and Q2 but not M (neither “M” as defined nor the M2 that Matthew and Mark share, but Mark never saw this Luke (nor the Grundschrift that may have preceded it).
The completed Greek/Aramaic Grundschrift with M (Proto-Matthew) that led to Matthew was also used for Mark. Mark corresponds to Luke more closely than to Luke at certain passages, so we know that Mark did not copy Matthew, just a Proto-Matthew that followed a text that agreed with Luke. But can we reasonably say that Mark, an abridgment of this text, could wind up closer at so many points? Yes, because at these places Mark was copying wholesale, not abridging. Note that Mark 13 is almost identical to Matthew 24, the Little Apocalypse, even though this is a teaching text. Immediately preceding we find Mark 12 full of teachings and often almost identical for all three Synoptics. Better yet, start with Mark 11:27-33. That’s seven verses. The parallel Mt. 21:23-27 is only five verses, 15 column-lines. Hardly an abridgment. So if Mark contains text closer to Luke 20:1-8, 16 column lives, equal to Mark, we should not be surprised. Mt. 21:23 leads off with the “chief priests and the elders” questioning about Jesus’s authority. Yet in Mr. 11:27 we read “the chief priests, THE SCRIBES, and the elders”, quite like Lk 20:1. As long as we don’t’ try to claim Mark copied from Matthew, there is no problem here, it’s that Mark used the earlier Proto-Matthew that still had not lost “the scribes”.
The teaching on the pride of the scribes is readily explained. Mt. 23:5-6, 14 differs from Mk 12:38-40 and Lk 20:46-47. The “devouring widows’ homes” of Mt 23:14 may even be omitted in Matthew according to textual critic ism so this out-of-place or omitted verse much more likely got mangled in the rearrangement of Matthew from Proto-Matthew than before that, so Mk 12:38-40 rightly preserves the Lk 20:46-47 almost exactly.
All this fits my definition of Q2 material. The writer of this may well have been writing it or integrating it into the Grundschrift and on to its completion as Proto-Matthew. Similarly he may have done the abridgment into Mark in which he preserved almost fully intact his own product, Q2.
To work out for the non-exact portions of the Synoptics, a different translation (by a different person) has to underlie Luke. Its Q1 differs, but Q2 comes through much the same, sometimes identical as seen many times between Matthew and Luke. As explained above, this can even happen for passages shared by all three Synoptics. This is rarer because Mark is an abridgment that deletes most non-narrative . The focus of Q2 is on John the Baptist, so what Jesus said about him was reserved into Mark 11:27-33 if I am correct that the Q2 writer also was associated with Mark. But many mere sayings of John or events ab out him were lost in the reduction to Mark that so radically cut what even Jesus wrote—except what Jesus said in his last days. So was this Q2 writer and Mark's author then John Mark, whose contact with Jesus was just those last days? And does Lk 12:41 show us that the authority behind Q2 and Mark was Peter?
Earlier in Jesus’s ministry we also find some exact parallels, as we would expect if the Double Tradition arose not from Matthew and Luke sharing a common text (Q) not known to Mark. Mark’s abridgements leave this not very obvious to us. Even so, they show through earlier. Consider Mark 8:34-38. The whole passage shows much exact verbal usage in Lk 9:23-27 and also Mt 16:24-28. What is most telling, however, is that Mk 8:38 is almost word-for-word the same in with Lk 9:26. So this is a Q2 (of a type I am not starting to call Q3) between Mark and Luke instead of the usual Matthew and Luke? True, all major hypotheses can explain this as well, but it works in my theory as well.
[The above immediately precedes my Parable of the Tenants posting on Nov. 30]
Adam
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Horizontal Hypothesis Occam's Razor Interlude

Post by Adam »

(Written Nov. 29 and ) Resuming my prior post’s speculations about John Mark, I have ruminated whether John Mark’s hand in all this is shown by the intensity of focus of all four gospels on Jesus’s final week (though in Luke comprising only 20%). Seven of the chapters of Mark come after Jesus crossed the Jordan into Judea (Mk 10:1). Was John Mark hearing Jesus there and approaching him as the rich young ruler (Mk 10:17-25, maybe to 31)? Few major teaching encounters precede this. (However, there is much legal teaching in the Marcan Interpolation at Mk 7:1-23. Which brings up the issue of whether I am correct about its provenance as being together with M?)
Fifty years having been indoctrinated with the 2DH left me with little impetus to study Matthew (apart from its supposed “Q” portions). Even the overlap with Mark did not interest me because of its Judaic nature and affiliation with Matthew. Now that I compare these three chapters of overlap, I see that they are like the rest of Matthew and Mark in their alternation between one and the other as to which was more original. They clearly do not copy one another. My acceptance of the Two-Document Hypothesis presupposed that an Ur-Marcus underlay Mark, that Matthew did not simply copy Mark. (Or I just did not care.)
The portions of Matthew 14:1 TO 16:12 that are paralleled in Mark 6:16-8:21 trace back to an underlying Proto-Matthew source that could have been a Greek version of the mixed Aramaic/Greek Grundschrift. However, only Mt. 15:32bc = Mk 8:2 (two column-lines), so not likely. Can’t Mark just be an abridgment of the Aramaic-Greek Grundschrift? Well, yes, Aramaic-Greek all right. But Proto-Matthew was still a mixed Aramaic-Greek text that Matthew translates differently for Q1/Twelve-Source than Mark does. Thus the verbal identities in the Feeding of the 4000 meant it was in Greek, an exception in M (M2)? Maybe it was a copy of the Feeding of the 5000?
I cannot find anywhere Q1 text in the first two gospels identical enough to be from a shared Greek exemplar. Matthew and Mark both abridge significantly in the early chapters, but even where the same lines exist, they are not exact beyond where chance could allow.
The “Peter” of Mt. 15:15 (paralleling Lk 12:41) tends to indicate Q2 rather than Q1, so is the Parable of the Mouth from Greek, Mt 15:10-20 =Mk 7:14-23?
This all is uncertain, because so much of Mark that clearly shares a Greek origin with Luke does not necessarily come out so exact with Matthew—because both Matthew and Mark abridge so much.
I come even simpler by Occams’s Razor now. Not only was the Grundschrift mixed Aramaic-Greek for Luke’s use, but its nature did no change when M (“m” plus M2) was added. It remained as Proto-Matthew a mixed Aramaic-Greek text that Mk abridged and Matthew rearranged. Yet further we might suspect that “L” in Aramaic was added to this and is known to history variously as Gospel according to the Hebrews or Ebionites or Nazarenes, any of which may have added further elements. Thus the Grundschrift was continually assimilating more material. Probably in several rescensions. Did it contribute to Tatian’s Diatessaron—or maybe just the idea, or driving a need the need to replace that Judeo-Christian gospel with the Diatessaron?
So, far from disparaging “Q” as a sayings text unknown to history (pace Gospel of Thomas)—by transforming Q into Q1 and Q2 and their assimilation of Twelve-Source and Passion Narrative particularly unto Q1—we run instead into an embarrassing plethora of historical possibilities to reconcile.
Early on there existed Marcion’s Gospel quite distinct from the Post-M pre-L Grundschrift, and in-between them there were the Synoptics. Largely apart from all these was the Gospel of John. (The Synoptic parallels in Gospel of Thomas were in an equally early text, but provide us nothing extra because the Gnostic portions of Thomas are late.)
(Adumbrating my Dec. 6 Evolving-Grundschrift Hypothesis, I wrote on Nov. 30: )
The Q1/Twelve-Source feeding into Luke is more primitive than what fed into the other two Synoptics (like the namings James and John and Andrew). Subtle changes came into the earlier text when M was added.
Last edited by Adam on Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Adam
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Eichhorn Again

Post by Adam »

Eichhorn Again
Back on Nov. 6th I wrote
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14
that I expected to amend my Horizontal Hypothesis to include the complications Eichhorn taught in his 1794 and 1804 diagrams of the Grundschrift Hypothesis. My path next led to my simplification, however, with my Occam’s Razor version that all the Synoptics worked directly off the Grundschrift. By Nov. 30th I modified this to what I thought would reconcile all hypotheses, that after Luke took the first reading off the Grundschrift, he added in the mostly exact verses concerning John the Baptist. (Eichhorn’s model needed to show Luke’s access directly to the Grundschrift, but to copy from it. Instead, my idea is that Luke altered the Grundschrift and transcribed into it. Eichhorn’s model fails because Matthew becomes too distant from Luke for such exactness.) Similarly, after the next gospel was written, that gospel’s Little Apocalypse (Mark 13) was added in to the Grundschrift before the last Synoptic was written from it. Thus this chapter can be so exact between Mark and Matthew even though most of the contents are looser.

Some further modification is necessary to accommodate what I learned from reading James R. Edward’s 2009 The Hebrew Gospel & the Development of the Synoptic Tradition. His Appendix II reveals that the Double Tradition passages in Luke display much less Semitisms that the Special Lucan or L passages. It follows that all the Q-like passages must have been in good Greek for use by the “final” author of Luke whose L material is replete with Semitisms. I have to alter my model that otherwise can’t accommodate that Luke incorporated “Q” and L at the same time, yet wound up with contrasting literary characteristics. Thus there was an Ur-Lucas (Eichhorn’s B) in-between the Grundschrift and Luke.

Thus I now find myself in virtually total agreement with Eichhorn’s model. As diagrammed by John Kloppenborg in 2000 in his excellent Excavating Q, there was an Aramaic Ur-Gospel. (In my understanding this would have been Q1 + Q2 + the Passion Narrative, but split between Aramaic Q1 and its related PN passages and Greek Q2 and its related PN passages.) A “B” off-shoot text was in Greek, an Ur-Lucas that led straight to Luke when L was added to it. Meanwhile this Luke (or the B preceding it) fed back into the Grundschrift the passages nearly exact with Matthew about John the Baptist, my version of what Eichhorn called D for the direct tie between Luke and the Grundschrift. (According to Stephen Carlson this D was used not just by Luke but by Matthew, http://www.hypotyposeis.org/synoptic-pr ... oblem.html
what has been regarded by others as Q. Eichhorn had the first Q theory?
http://jdavidstark.com/2009/03/24/solut ... n/#respond )
More complicated is the “A” text that took the D-altered text and added in the M passages unique to Matthew along with the M2 passages shared by Matthew and Mark. This could be called Proto-Matthew. By my Evolving-Grundschrift Hypothesis this is yet another stage in the production of the Grundschrift, not an off-shoot “A” text, but for the Synoptic Problem my solution is the same as Eichhorn’s with different terminology. Thus along with Eichhorn my teaching here has been that both Matthew and Mark stem from this. The meaningful difference is that (as with “D” above) I see the Little Apocalypse as written back into the text when the first of Mark or Matthew finished and before the other started writing. Eichhorn’s “A” got augmented into my theory’s “completed Grundschrift” (though available for further use in Judeo-Christian texts, particularly if “L” soon got added to it).

Eichhorn’s theory calls for the “A” text to be used for “C”, which is Mark in my theory, but Ur-Marcus for Eichhorn. Eichhorn believed this was necessary to accommodate C drawing upon the B that developed into Luke. Perhaps, but my current theory has been that exactness between Luke and the other Synoptics is the result of where Luke or B was copied back into the Grundschrift. I suppose Eichhorn had the Ur-Marcus as a buffer to explain why Mark is so much like Luke yet not more like Luke than it is.
My hope is that my tweaking of Eichhorn’s Hypothesis removes whatever disproofs that two centuries might have come up with. Yet at the same time I hope that his thorough scholarship gives me a head start on proving my very similar theory.
Last edited by Adam on Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Adam
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Eichhorn's "Flaw"

Post by Adam »

I keep reading many places that the Urevangelium theory of Eichhorn has been abandoned. I finally found a place that says why.
https://www.truelife.org/articles/the-s ... problem--2
Eichhorn’s notion of multiple gospels succeeding the Ur-gospel creates additional problems as well. While it seems to solve the above flaw, Eichhorn’s claim that the extant Gospel writers are simply translations of non-existent, third-hand accounts undermines the authority historically given to the authors of the Synoptics. They are relegated to mere scribes void of any eyewitness credibility. Such a ramification leads to further logical conclusions which both a) compromise the integrity of the Gospels, and b) is inadequate to account for the historical data.
(The "above flaw" is Lessing's failure to explain why the Synoptics differ so much.)
So Eichhorn's flaw is supposing that there were non-extant earlier gospels and that our gospels are not necessarily historical? That Fundamentalism does not fly? Do these objections impress anybody here?
And yet my own variation on Eichhorn sees a precursor gospel as making it easier to think that eyewitnesses did indeed write the gospels, but at a distant enough remove that it's obvious to no one but me.
Adam
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Marsh on Eichhorn's Later Views

Post by Adam »

“St. Matthew, St. Mark, and St. Luke, all three, used copies of the common Hebrew document “K”, the materials of which St. Matthew, who wrote in Hebrew, retained in the language in which he found them, but St. Mark and St. Luke translated them into Greek. They had no knowledge of each other’s Gospels; but St. Mark and St. Luke, besides their copies of the Hebrew document “K”, used a Greek translation of it, which had been made before any of the additions “a,” “b,” “y,” “A,” “B” and “r” had been inserted. Lastly, as the Gospels of St. Mark and St. Luke contain Greek translations of Hebrew materials, which were incorporated into St. Matthew’s Hebrew Gospel, the person who translated St. Matthew’s Hebrew Gospel into Greek frequently derived assistance from the Gospel of St. Mark, where St. Mark had matter in common with St. Matthew; and in those places, but in those places only, where St. Mark had no matter in common with St. Matthew, he had frequently recourse to St. Luke’s Gospel.” Dissertation, chap. xv., p. 195. We copy from pp. li & Iii of Morison, op. cit.

Interesting. The above1801 quote gives a quite different explanation for the near-exact Q quotes and for such identity in the Little Apocalypse. Eichhorn had quickly given up on a purely Aramaic Proto-Gospel.
Adam
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Re: Horizontal Synoptic Solution

Post by Adam »

Eichhorn, at the close of last century (1794), was the
SOURCES OF THE SYNOPTIC GOSPELS. 57

first to give prominence to this theory. 1 He gave great
offence by the boldness of his criticism, coming into direct
collision with the then traditional view of the Gospels as
independent narratives. At the time the work was regarded
as a direct attack on the genuineness and credibility of the
Gospels. 2 He supposed that there was an original Aramaic
Gospel, which lay at the foundation of the Synoptic Gospels.
This document was soon translated into Greek. In process
of time additions were made to it and inserted in the nar
rative. There were three translations and three sets of
traditions, and these constituted the Gospels of Matthew,
Mark, and Luke. In addition to this original Aramaic
Gospel there was another document containing a collection
of precepts, parables, and discourses delivered by Christ,
which was used by Matthew and Luke, and accounts for the
similarities in their Gospels. 3
1 Eichhorn s Einleitung in das N.T. vol. i. 78-88. Le Clerc (1716)
appears to have been the first critic who suggested it ; afterwards it was
maintained by Michaelis and Lessing, but it was left to Eichhorn to
develop this hypothesis, and to draw it out into a regular theory.

2 There was certainly some reason for this opinion, as Eichhorn considers that our first three Gospels did not come into use before the end of
the second century.

3 Eichhorn s Einleitung, 84. 4 Marsh s Michaelis, vol. v. p. 361.


http://www.archive.org/stream/introduct ... t_djvu.txt

PATON J. GLOAG, D.D.
1. INTRODUCTION TO THE SYNOPTIC GOSPELS. 1895
Note the above "additions were made to it". Looks even more like me.
Adam
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Re: Horizontal Synoptic Solution

Post by Adam »

Blood’s signature is apt judging by over two centuries of study on the Synoptic Problem. No resolution yet, even though we now have had the Gospel of Thomas available for almost 70 years. Without it, the early rush for a Proto-Gospel led inevitably to the Two-Document Hypothesis of the priority of Mark and the use of Q. Yet such is the nature of academia that it has unaccountably retained pre-eminence with only sniping from dependence theories that should have been put to rest at the outset.
[To read the book below studied, click here and search for author Herbert Marsh)
http://www.hathitrust.org
Increasingly throughout the 18th Century, an Aramaic original for the gospels was favored, reaching a peak with Eichhorn in 1794. His disciple Herbert Marsh acknowledged in 1801 that that was untenable while touting Eichhorn’s modification that focused on three independent translations into Greek. Dissertation on the Origen and Composition of our Three First Canonical Gospels, Pg. 34n. Beyond this those copyists “added in the margins…their knowledge…as transcribers into the text” (31n) In spite of this correction, however, Marsh still wound up supposing that Matthew (alone) had access to the other two gospels (not just their precursors) while writing (209). He had earlier stated that a common original deserved deference, not that “succeeding evangelists copied from preceding” (32).
Even more alarming for the Proto-Gospel hypothesis, however, is that Eichhorn and Marsh held a minimalist accounting for the Aramaic original (Aleph) that discounted anything that was not found in all three of the Synoptics. This Triple Tradition is by definition found throughout 80% of Mark and nowhere else. Marsh also recognized a document (Beth) that was the Double Tradition we find in Matthew and Luke, which is our standard Q. The Two-Document Hypothesis was thus in effect developed by 1801. But at least Marsh was not flying in the face of the evidence against it we find now in the Gospel of Thomas that has so many sayings that are in Mark and obviously of this Q nature.
Eichhorn remained for some time recognized as the greatest Bible critic of his time (around 1800) in spite of his blunder in first thinking Like Lessing and others that our Synoptics could have been independent translations (at some remove or other) from the Aramaic original. As Marsh noted, Eichhorn should have paid attention to the agreements, not just the agreements, between the Synoptics (230n).
Marsh was an excellent analyst and devised an elaborate nomenclature for the additions (from marginal glosses, etc.) into series of translations and copies off from the original. He could thereby account for verbal agreements among the various gospels—except he gave up on the big ones. He was left assuming Matthew 24 was copied from Mark 13 and also admitting other cases where Matthew used translations already in Mark (166, 216, with very extensive argumentation on pg. 157-160 that the order of copying was only towards Matthew). Where Matthew could not find corresponding passages in Mark, he had recourse to Luke (215-217). It’s almost as if Marsh gave up in the final chapters what he had so elaborately constructed earlier. Consequently, it’s not surprising that the theories of Eichhorn and Marsh faded away in time. In their rigor on differences they led to eventual triumph of the 2DH, and in concession regarding agreements they left the door open for dependency views that are still popular (even though Marsh’s order of Luke-Mark-Matthew is rare today, though I like it).
Marsh went beyond Eichhorn in illustrating his case with hypothetical conflated text XY, XZ, and XYZ as precursors of Matthew, Luke, and Mark respectively. Conceding such a scholarly procedure was unlikely back in the First Century, Marsh proposed instead acknowledging that each gospel was written with two complete texts to consult. Even so, Marsh had proposed so many rescensions that he was rejected even more than Eichhorn also was eventually.
I see the mistake of Eichhorn and Marsh was in not keeping their theories simple by focusing on a minimum of documents. They too quickly assumed that anything not in all three Synoptics must be an addition to the text, thus multiplying sources and amounts of their content. They should have focused on marginal notations to explain close verbal agreements. (Like Lk 3:7-9, 17 = Mt 3:7b-10, 12, easily explained as missing in Mark even if seen, especially if just in the margin.)
Marsh notes that there is less verbal agreement where Matthew deviates from the order found in Mark. He attributes this to the translator having a hard time finding where in Mark was the Greek translation. Yet this same observation could apply if Matthew held more closely to Marcan order wherever it was already translated into Greek, finding a place later for passages he would have to translate.
In spite of Bishop Marsh’s brilliance, or maybe because he is so sure of it, he exposes reasoning flaws. In a chain of argumentation he states as settled by hypothesis that our Greek Matthew is a plain translation of the Hebrew, and that “Luke… written before Mark, and Matthew” (204, 205n).
So the burden is still on me to prove my case. My basic case for verbal exactness is not the original document in common, but that along the way the writers of Luke (about John the Baptist) and Mark 13 inserted their own exact words into the Grundschrift and Matthew picked them up in full. Marsh’s order of Luke-Mark-Matthew facilitates this, but he didn’t need to concede that Matthew had to have seen the preceding two gospels. Any dependency draws the retort, “Why was so much left out?”
And to account for so much confusion in the ordering of Q, by theory now holds that most of this was not originally incorporated chronologically in the text, but as undigested appendices at the end.
Edited to add:
Thus the Grundschrift Hypothesis suicided. Reconstituted in its own terms, can it revive?
Edited to add:
Of course, to say that Eichhorn was the greatest Bible critic of his time was basically to say that he was the first Bible critic. Even I readily admit that standards have improved. I can't believe how much scholarship (10 footnotes per well-written page) goes into today's publications.
Last edited by Adam on Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Adam
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Have it Your Way. Just supposing

Post by Adam »

Have it your way, then. With the Two-document Hypothesis we have Mark first, or something like it. Assume that then. Mark by this point (even if still just an Ur-Marcus) would be in Greek. There is much in Mark that looks Aramaic in source, so what happened to that underlying text? We know Luke got written at some time, probably using something like this, since much of the Marcan material is different enough from Mark to look like it was independently translated from Aramaic, while much else looks close enough to share a common Greek exemplar. Using this mixed text, a new author starts inserting his own verses, most notably Luke 3:7-9, 17. (Or if you think Matthew was next, that would be Mt. 3:7b-10, 12.) Now these verses are so verbally exact that they stand out as different, as insertions into the Grundschrift itself rather than Matthew and Luke having copied independently from an original Greek, perhaps at several removes.) Likewise not in Mark but exact in the other two Synoptics is Luke 7:24-28 identical with Mt. 11:7-11, also about John the Baptist.
Have it your way that Marcion or other textual evidence shows us that Luke (or Matthew, same reasoning) really began at Lk 3:2 similarly to Mark 1:2 with John the Baptist. The verbally exact insertions thus come right away, particularly if the second set parallels Mk 1:14, the arrest of John the Baptist mentioned so soon as Lk 3:20. So early on the writer could have realized that such long insertions into the original itself was not going to suit his larger purpose of insertions as large as nine consecutive chapters (Lk 9:51-18:15). Whatever insertions he subsequently made were too small to be so obvious or so long that they could only be entered in uniquely Lucan material never seen by the other two Synoptists.
After this writer finished his use of the Urtext, it was available for other use. As a mixed Aramaic and Greek text it had no popular appeal for worship or study, so we follow it to where the above exact verses turn up elsewhere, which in my example above would be Matthew (Luke for those who prefer to assume Matthew was first). However, Matthew and Mark in the main copy from a common original let’s call Proto-Matthew. Even with lots of new material, perhaps all of the uniquely Matthean M, all this could have been stitched into the old Urtext. Only Matthew copied in the above-mentioned exact verses. Mark tends to radically abridge some sections (the Temptation gets boiled down to just Mark 1:12-13), so would tend not to incorporate marginal notes. Mark is particularly reticent to include long teachings sections, yet Mark 13 contains the Little Apocalypse. It seems more likely this was copied into Matthew 24, with insertions there (Mt 24:26-28, 37-41) that would seem unlikely to be omitted in Mark 13:5-37. Thus I see Matthew as later than Mark, picking up this massive insertion of 32 verses into the Urtext at the time Mark was created. In any case this Little Apocalypse was not available to Luke, justifying my preferred order of expansion of the Urtext from Luke to Mark and from Mark to Matthew. By my model Luke has to be first, but there is not so much proof that Mark preceded Matthew.
Throughout the use of it, the Urtext remained a mixed Aramaic and Greek text. It probably was marred by marginal notes, by pastings onto it, and by being cut up for rearrangement into the eventual fully Greek Matthew. Any subsequent use would best have been to use the scraps in Aramaic to be supplemented by translations of the Greek additions back to Aramaic and to be a basis for the Gospel According to the Hebrews. It had been put to good use. After it had grown to contain 80% of what we know as Mark plus all of Q (the latter probably mostly appended at the end), it was used to create an Ur-Lucas in Greek that did not yet contain L. The two John the Baptist insertions were entered into the Urtext. Next M was added to create Proto-Matthew. Mark was abridged from it (consider how clearly Mark 1:1-15 is an abridgement of an earlier text perhaps as large as found now in the third and fourth chapters of Luke and Matthew). Mark 13 was inserted into the Urtext (now Proto-Matthew), from which Matthew emerged after much rearrangement.
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