Giuseppe on MacDonald & Ferguson on the Josephs

[Giuseppe]

I'm following MacDonald in his view on Magdalena as Andromacha or Ecuba. But you are right that we should find who would be her antithesis (to test if MacDonald is right) along the line "old family versus new family".

[Giuseppe]

I find this ethymology of ''Herodias'':

The name Herodias is a feminized version of the name Herod. It's not clear where either name comes from, but here at Abarim Publications we like to propose that the name Herod(ias) may have to do with the Hebrew verb ערד ('arad), meaning to flee, or חרד (harad), meaning to tremble or be afraid (and please see our article on the name Herod for the details).

The name Herodias may mean Fleer or Afraid.

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Mean ... xcvYzZJm74

Thus her name convey an idea of vulnerability, of fear, which is the opposite of what can mean the meaning of ''Magdalena'', or ''towered town'' (according to MacDonald). A ''fortified city'' (i.e.: Troy), by definition, conveys security, courage, strong position, the exact opposite of vulnerability.

The word Μαγδαληνή comes from the Hebrew word מגדל, “tower,” and the derivative Aramaic epithet מגדלאה or מגדליא, “of Magdala.” Magdala was “Towertown,” and the foundations of the ancient structure are visible today.

We observe a common trait among Magdalene and Herodias: both see the remains of a hero at his death (resp., John the Baptist and Jesus). Both have the function of confirming the happened death of the hero.

This yes. I think now that MacDonald is right: Mary of Nazaret is not the Mary mother of James the Less and Joses. Just as Joseph of Nazaret is not the Joseph of Nazaret. Just as Salome is not the daughter of Herod. Just as Mary Magdalena is not Herodias. Just as Simon of Cyrene is not Simon Peter.

[Giuseppe]

See too the different reactions of Herodias and Magdalena.

Herodias (meaning 'fear'), feared John the Baptist and succeeds in ordaining his death (via Salome). She notes in person his victory over John (she can even touch his head!). She has not more fear of John the Baptist because he is dead and is not risen.

Magdalena (meaning 'turrite town', hence the opposite of 'fear'/'Herodias'), notes in person the death of Jesus (from a distance, however!) and she laments his death. But she has now fear of Jesus because he is dead and is risen, according to angel.

Paradoxically, just she who had to have courage (the 'towered town' of Troy) is afraid, and she who should be afraid (by his name: 'Herodias'), just she had pride and security.

[MrMacSon]

This yes. I think now that MacDonald is right: Mary of Nazaret is not the Mary mother of James the Less and Joses. Just as Joseph of Nazaret is not the Joseph of Nazaret. Just as Salome is not the daughter of Herod. Just as Mary Magdalena is not Herodias. Just as Simon of Cyrene is not Simon Peter.

Did you mean to say "Just as Joseph of Arimathea is not the Joseph of Nazaret" ?

[DCHindley]

WRT the influence of Homer on the author of the Gospel of Mark, I think that I have made a tremendous discovery, one that will change Biblical Scholarship forever!

The following table* contain apparent random verses from Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, which can be verified by those who express doubt. Of course, we all know better ... that they are in fact insidious fictions penned by Julius Africanus and inserted into his own personal copy of Homer's works, as he edited them for placement into the libraries of Rome and Aelia.

In a vision granted to me as I was driving between the Ohio towns of Kent and Ravenna today, just before I went to Sears to buy my lovely daughter a new mattress/box spring set, and a voice, as a loud horn, said to me "Get moving you moron!" I was forced to pull aside to let the impatient nun pass me as I gestured in a friendly manner my acknowledgment of her encouragement.

Yet, my mind, achieving almost impossible clarity, realized that this was an omen, one that really meant: "To determine the truth, David, you must throw three dice three times, with each side numbered one to six, and then correspond the three values with the lines of the table which you shall find in PGM VII. 1-148, as published in English translation by H. D. Betz. The verses will tell you the truth. Afterward, deify a cat, and mummify it, then bury the mummy inside a lamp not colored red, under the shade of a storax tree, and say the following invocation: 'Oh, I'm sorry officer, I just pulled over to answer my phone. There's no problem. What dead cat?' And so you shall learn the truth."

I have just rolled 6-5-3 "then you may hope to see your loved ones and reach", then 4-3-1 "For even fair-tressed Niobe turned her mind to food, and finally 3-1-2 "Be mindful of every form of valor. Now you needs must". I just experienced goose-bumps to relate this amazing factoid to you who listen in rapt wonder.

DCH

*

1.	1-1-1	But on account of their accursed bellies they have miserable woes, [Od. 15.344]
2.	1-1-2	neither to cast anchor stones nor to attach stem cables, [Od. 9.137]
3.	1-1-3	being struck by the sword, and the water was becoming red with blood. [Il. 21.21]
4.	1-1-4	. . .
5.	1-1-5	stood holding a scepter, which Hephaistos produced by his labors. [Il. 2.101]
6.	1-1-6	. . .
7.	1-2-1	amends I wish to make and to give a boundless ransom. [Il. 9.120; 19. 138]
8.	1-2-2	surely then the gods themselves have ruined your mind. [Il. 7. 360; 12. 234]
9.	1-2-3	. . .
10.	1-2-4	. . .
11.	1-2-5,	let it lie in the great hall. And I wish for your happy arrival [Od. 15. 128]
12.	1-2-6	. . .
13.	1-3-1	. . .
14.	1-3-2	. . .
15.	1-3-3	But Zeus does not accomplish for men all their purposes. [Il. 18. 328]
16.	1-3-4	I would even wish it, and it would be much better [Il. 3.41; Od. 11. 358; 20. 316]
17.	1-3-5	Then indeed would he smash all your fine show, [Od. 17.244]
18.	1-3-6	I also care about all these things, woman. But very terribly [Il. 6. 441]
19.	1-4-1	. . .
20.	1-4-2	speaking good things, but they were contriving evil things in their hearts. [Od. 17.66]
21.	1-4-3	The glorious gifts of the gods arc surely not to be cast aside, [Il. 3. 65]
22.	1-4-4	. . .
23.	1-4-5	. . .
24.	1-4-6	These things, Zeus-nurtured Skamander, will be as you order. [Il. 21. 223]
25.	1-5-1	a joy to your enemies, and a disgrace to yourself? [Il. 3. 51]
26.	1-5-2	Within this very year, Odysseus will arrive here, [Od. 14.161; 19. 306]
27.	1-5-3	No use indeed to you, since you will not lie dad in them, [Il. 22. 513]
28.	1-5-4	And to the victor are to go the woman and the possessions. [Il. 3. 255]
29.	1-5-5	The rule of the many is no good. Let there be one ruler, [Il. 2.204]
30.	1-5-6	And the gateway is full of ghosts, and full also is the courtyard, [Od. 20. 355]
31.	1-6-1	We have won great honor. We have killed glorious Hektor, [Il. 22, 393]
32.	1-6-2	Who would undertake and complete this task for ? [Il. 10. 303]
33.	1-6-3	Not even if his gifts to one should be as numerous as the grains of sand and particles of dust, [Il. 9. 385]
34.	1-6-4	. . .
35.	1-6-5	. . .
36.	1-6-6	. . .
37.	2-1-1	For no island is made for driving horses or has broad meadows, [Od. 4. 607]
38.	2-1-2	in the past, when you were boys, did you listen to your [Od. 4.688]
39.	2-1-3	. . .
40.	2-1-4	. . .
41.	2-1-5	. . .
42.	2-1-6	His gifts are hateful to me, and I honor him not a whit. [Il. 9.378]
43.	2-2-1	an only beloved heir to many possessions, [I/. 9. 482; Od. 16. 19 (?)]
44.	2-2-2	. . .
45.	2-2-3	. . .
46.	2-2-4	. . .
47.	2-2-5	So they thronged about him. And near [Od. 24. 19] r
48.	2-2-6	and fashioning lies out of what nobody could see. [Od. 11. 366]
49.	2-3-1	be valiant, that later generations may also speak well of you. [Od. 1. 302]
50.	2-3-2	leaning on the grave marker over a barrow heaped up by men [Il. 11. 371]
51.	2-3-3	go. You have a way, and beside the sea your ships [Il. 9.43]
52.	2-3-4	You will be proved a liar, and will not go on to fulfill your word. [Il. 19. 10 7]
53.	2-3-5	And his mother for her part continued the lament amid a flood of tears, [Il. 22. 79]
54.	2-3-6	Not even if remaining for five or six years [Od. 3.115]
55.	2-4-1	So he spoke, and ordered Paion to administer a cure. [Il. 5. 899]
56.	2-4-2	These things, unhappy man, will I accomplish and do for you. [ Od. 11. 80]
57.	2-4-3	How can you propose to render toil useless and ineffectual? [Il. 4. 26]
58.	2-4-4	a thing delayed, late of fulfillment, whose fame will never perish. [Il. 2. 325]
59.	2-4-5	Sooner would you grow weary and return to your native land. [Od. 3. 117]
60.	2-4-6	to go, that he may bring poisonous drugs from there, [Od. 2. 329]
61.	2-5-1	Husband, you departed from life young, and me behind as a widow [Il. 24. 725]
62.	2-5-2	in which way I will for sure accomplish everything and how it will be brought to pass, [Il. 9. 310 (?)]
63.	2-5-3	Offer me not honey-tempered wine, honored mother, [Il. 6.264]
64.	2-5-4	. . .
65.	2-5-5	. . .
66.	2-5-6	Do not orphan your son and make your wife a widow. [Il. 6. 432]
67.	2-6-1	would that they might now cat their last and final meal here. [Od. 4. 685]
68.	2-6-2	It is not meet for a man who speaks in the Council to sleep all the night through, [Il. 2.24]
69.	2-6-3	What’s wrong with you, that you took this wrath into your heart? [Il. 6. 326]
70.	2-6-4	But who knows if he will one day return and punish them for their violent deeds? [Od. 3. 216]
71.	2-6-5	wives I will provide for both and furnish possessions [Od. 21. 214]
72.	2-6-6	we may try the bow and complete the contest. [Od. 21. 180]
73.	3-1-1	For it’s no reproach to flee evil, nor by night. Il. 14. 80]
74.	3-1-2	Be mindful of every form of valor. Now you needs must [Il. 22. 268]
75.	3-1-3	as a widow at home. And the boy is still just a baby, [Il. 22.484; cf. 24. 726]
76.	3-1-4	But do you in no wise enter the moil of Ares, [Il. 18.134]
77.	3-1-5	For amid misfortune mortals quickly grow old. [Od. 19. 360]
78.	3-1-6	. . .
79.	3-2-1	. . .
80.	3-2-2	Such a man is not alive nor will be born, [Od. 6. 201]
81.	3-2-3	Of a truth, child, there’s nothing really wrong with this, [Il. 18.128]
82.	3-2-4	Now is it no longer possible for him to find escape from us, [Il. 22. 219]
83.	3-2-5	we will ransom with bronze and gold, for it is within. [Il. 22. 50]
84.	3-2-6	drink, and do not vie with younger men. [Od. 21. 310]
85.	3-3-1	where are you fleeing, turning your back like a craven in the ranks? [Il. 8. 94]
86.	3-3-2	Would that such a man be called my husband [Od. 6.244]
87.	3-3-3	plants her head in heaven and walks upon the earth. [Il. 4.443]
88.	3-3-4	But Zeus does not accomplish for men all their purposes. [Il. 18. 328]
89.	3-3-5	and nodded for his army to survive and not to perish. [Il. 8. 246]
90.	3-3-6	Would that you had not pled with the noble son of Peleus, [Il. 9. 698]
91.	3-4-1	Honey-sweet wine has the best of you, which others also [Od. 21.293]
92.	3-4-2	Act in whatever wav your mind is moved, and no longer hold back. [Il. 22. 185}
93.	3-4-3	For it is fated for both to turn the same ground red [Il. 18. 329]
94.	3-4-4	keep on shooting like this, if haply you may become a light to the Danaans [Il. 8. 282]
95.	3-4-5	as there is no one who could keep the dogs off your head, [Il. 22. 348]
96.	3-4-6	You will not kill me, since I am for sure not subject to Fate. [Il. 22. 13]
97.	3-5-1	staying right here you would help me watch over this house [Od. 5. 208]
98.	3-5-2	Get out of the gateway, old man, or it won’t be long before you’re dragged out by the foot. [Od. 18. 10]
99.	3-5-3	Better for a man to escape evil by flight than to be caught. [Il. 14. 81]
100.	3-5-4	and declare to no one, neither man nor woman, [Od. 13. 308]
101.	3-5-5	of wheat or barley. And the heaps fell thick and fast. [Il. 11. 69]
102.	3-5-6	Whatever sort of word you speak, such would you hear. [Il. 20.250]
103.	3-6-1	was opposed to giving Helen to tawny Menelaos, [Il. 11. 125]
104.	3-6-2	or will you alter your purpose? The hearts of the good are flexible. [Il. 15. 203]
105.	3-6-3	Yet I for one never doubted, but at heart [Od. 13. 339]
106.	3-6-4	Eurymachos, it will not be so. And even you know it. [Od. 21.257]
107.	3-6-5	You miserable foreigner, you have no sense at all. [Od. 21.288]
108.	3-6-6	And the father granted him one thing, but denied him the other. [Il. 16. 250]
109.	4-1-1	Nay, go to your chambers and tend to your own work, [Od. 1. 356]
110.	4-1-2	Now then, do not even tell this to your wife. [Od. 11.224 (alternate version)]
111.	4-1-3	would you have been stoned to death for all the wrongs you’ve done. [Il. 3. 57]
112.	4-1-4	you prayed to the immortals to sec with a beard grown. [Od. 18. 176]
113.	4-1-5	and vow to Lycian-born Apollo die famous archer [Il. 4.101]
114.	4-1-6	and no spirit of harmony unites wolves and sheep, [Il. 22.263]
115.	4-2-1	Come now, let us make these concessions to one another, [Il. 4.62]
116.	4-2-2	And in the throng were Strife and Uproar, and Fate-of-Death, [Il. 18. 535]
117.	4-2-3	. . .
118.	4-2-4	Up, rush into battle, the man you have always claimed to be. [Il. 4. 264]
119.	4-2-5	. . .
120.	4-2-6	You baby, what use now to keep your bow idle? [Il. 21.474]
121.	4-3-1	For even fair-tressed Niobe turned her mind to food, [Il. 24. 602]
122.	4-3-2	after giving a mass of bronze and gold and raiment [Od. 5. 38]
123.	4-3-3	C* 0 L J Surely then the journey will not be useless or fail to occur. [Od. 2. 273]
124.	4-3-4	One omen is best, to defend your country. [Il. 12. 243]
125.	4-3-5	I will gild her horns all round and sacrifice her to you. [Il. 10. 294]
126.	4-3-6	and you would gain every Trojan’s thanks and praise, [Il. 4. 95]
127.	4-4-1	put in with your ship, since women are no longer trustworthy. [Od. 11. 456]
128.	4-4-2	It is not possible or proper to deny your request. [Il. 14. 212]
129.	4-4-3	would straightway fit his will to your desire and mine. [Il. 15. 52]
130.	4-4-4	and give him instruction. And it will be beneficial for him to obey. [Il. 11. 789]
131.	4-4-5	will give glory to me, and your soul to horse-famed Hades. [Il. 5. 654]
132.	4-4-6	fill up his ship with gold and bronze aplenty, [Il. 9.137]
133.	4-5-1	but tell one part, and let the other be concealed. [Od. 11. 443]
134.	4-5-2	and at birth Zeus sends a weight of misery. [Il.10. 71]
135.	4-5-3	alone to have intelligence, but they are flitting shades. [Od. 10.495]
136.	4-5-4	yielding to his indignation. But they now' withheld from him the gifts [Il. 9. 598]
137.	4-5-5	I rejoice at hearing what you say, son of Laertes. [Il.. 19.185]
138.	4-5-6	But Zeus causes men’s prowess to wax or to wane, [Il. 20.242]
139.	4-6-1	a terrible man. He would be quick to blame even the blameless. [Il. 11. 654]
140.	4-6-2	with all haste. For now would you capture the broad-wayed city [Il. 2. 66]
141.	4-6-3	Endure now, my heart. An even greater outrage did you once endure, [Od. 20.18]
142.	4-6-4	You lunatic, sit still and listen to the word of others, [Il. 2.200]
143.	4-6-5	had cast aside wrath and chosen friendship. [Il. 16. 282]
144.	4-6-6	so good it is for a son to be left by a dead [Od. 3.196]
145.	5-1-1	Here then, spread under your chest a veil, [Od. 5. 346]
146.	5-1-2	Tis impiety to exult over men slain. [Od. 22.412]
147.	5-1-3	through immortal night, when other mortals sleep? [Il. 24. 363]
148.	5-1-4	How then could I forget divine Odysseus? [Od. 1. 65]
149.	5-1-5	lurid death and o’erpowering doom laid hold of [Il. 5. 83]
15Q.	5-1-6	So there’s nothing else as horrible and vile as a woman [ Od. 11.427]
151.	5-2-1	V L J Let us not advance to fight the Danaans around the ships. [Il. 12. 216]
152.	5-2-2	to put up a defense, when some fellow provokes a fight. [Il. 24.369; Od. 16. 72; 21.133]
153.	5-2-3	nor do children at his knees call him “papa” [Il. 5.408]
154.	5-2-4	I am this very man, back home now. And after many toils [Od. 21. 207]
155.	5-2-5	Talk not like this. There’ll be no change before [Il. 5.218]
156.	5-2-6	let him stay here the while, even though he’s eager for Ares. [Il. 19, 189]
157.	5-3-1	And do not, exulting in war and battle, [Il. 16.91]
158.	5-3-2	never to have gone to bed with her and had intercourse, [Il. 9.133; 19. 176]
159.	5-3-3	and moistens the lips, but fails to moisten the palate. [Il. 22. 495]
160.	5-3-4	Take heart! Let these matters not trouble your thoughts. [Il. 18. 463]
161.	5-3-5	But this mad dog Tm unable to hit. [Il. 8. 299]
162.	5-3-6	Keep quiet, friend, and do as I say. [Il. 4.412]
163.	5-4-1	Bad deeds don’t prosper. The slow man for sure overtakes the swift, [Od. 8. 329]
164.	5-4-2	They shut fast and locked the doors of the hall. [Od. 21. 236]
165.	5-4-3	Ah, poor man! Death’s not at all on your mind, [Il. 17.201]
166.	5-4-4	Odysseus has come and reached home, though he was long in coming. [Od. 23. 7]
167.	5-4-5	in full he will accomplish it at last, and the penalty they pay is great, [Il. 4.161]
168.	5-4-6	and therein was Strife, and therein Valor, and therein chilling Attack, [Il. 5. 740]
169.	5-5-1	but ’tis most wretched to die and meet one’s doom by starvation. [Od. 12. 342]
170.	5-5-2	shall I be laid low when I die. But good repute is now my goal, [Il. 18.121]
171.	5-5-3	Up, rush into battle, the man you have always claimed to be. [Il. 4. 264]
172.	5-5-4	In no way do I mock you, dear child, nor am I playing tricks. [Od. 23. 26]
173.	5-5-5	but she stayed Alkmene’s labor and stopped her from giving birth. [Il. 19.119]
174.	5-5-6	But come, and hereafter I shall make amends for this, if now anything wrong [Il. 4. 362]
175.	5-6-1	Where are you two rushing? What causes the heart within your breast to rage? [Il. 8.413]
176.	5-6-2	Pray now, let him not be too much on your mind. [Od. 13. 421]
177.	5-6-3	But the gods do not, I ween, give men all things at the same time. [Il. 4. 320]
178.	5-6-4	Talk not like this. There’ll be no change before [Il. 5. 218]
179.	5-6-5	So he spake, but did not move the mind of Zeus by saying this. [Il. 12.173]
180.	5-6-6	but Odysseus nodded no and checked him in his eagerness. [Od. 21. 129]
181.	6-1-1	How can you want to go alone to the ships of the Achaians? [Il. 24. 203]
182.	6-1-2	him a bridegroom in his house, who left as only child a daughter [Od. 7. 65]
183.	6-1-3	And too, I’ve taken the mist from your eyes, which before was there, [Il. 5. 12 7]
184.	6-1-4	we may try the bow and complete the contest, [Od. 21.180]
185.	6-1-5	And I know that my arrival was longed for by you two [Od. 21. 209]
186.	6-1-6	I shall dress him in a mantle and a tunic, fine garments. [Od. 16. 79; 17. 550; 21. 339]
187.	6-2-1	by fastening a noose sheer from a high rafter, [Od. 11. 278]
188.	6-2-2	remembering our excellence, of the sort that even we [Od. 8. 244]
189.	6-2-3	the sea’s great expanse they cross, since this is the Earthshaker’s gift to them. [Od. 7. 35]
190.	6-2-4	Nay, come on with die bow. You’ll soon be sorry for obeying everybody. [Od. 21. 369]
191.	6-2-5	But hurry into battle, and rouse the other soldiers. [Il. 19.139 j
192.	6-2-6	For mighty Herakles, not even he escaped his doom, [Il. 18.117]
193.	6-3-1	amends I wish to make and to give a boundless ransom. [17. 9.120; 19. 138]
194.	6-3-2	And let him stand up among the Argives and swear an oath to you [Il. 19. 175]
195.	6-3-3	The man is nearby. Our search will not be long, if you are willing [Il. 14. 110]
196.	6-3-4	and not quite suddenly, and a very god should be the cause? [Od. 21. 196]
197.	6-3-5	Verily, these things have already happened, and not otherwise could [Il. 14.53]
198.	6-3-6	On now, follow dose! In action numbers make a difference. [Il. 12. 412]
199.	6-4-1	surely then the gods themselves have ruined your mind. [Il. 7. 360; 12. 234]
200.	6-4-2	Take heart, and let your thoughts not be of death. [Il. 10.383]
201.	6-4-3	by her wailing she rouse from sleep her household servants, [Il. 5. 413]
202.	6-4-4	Come now in strict silence, and I shall lead the way, [Od. 7. 30]
203.	6-4-5	are there ears for hearing, and sense and respect are dead. [Il. 15. 129]
204.	6-4-6	as he was growing old. But die son did not grow old in his father’s armor. [Il. 17.197]
205.	6-5-1	to return home and behold the day of homecoming. [Od. 5. 220; 8.466]
206.	6-5-2	Apollo of the silver bow did strike the one, still sonless, [Od. 7.64]
207.	6-5-3	then you may hope to see your loved ones and reach [Od. 7. 76]
208.	6-5-4	As for you two, I will tell you exactly how it will be. [Od. 21. 212]
209.	6-5-5	For so shall I proclaim, and it will be accomplished too. [Il. 1. 212]
210.	6-5-6	and I shall send him wherever his heart and spirit urge him. [Od. 16. 81; 21. 342]
211.	6-6-1	idiot? You’ll soon pay when the swift hounds devour you [Od. 21. 363]
212.	6-6-2	You would learn what mighty hands I have to back me up. [Od. 20. 237; 21. 202]
213.	6-6-3	In no wise do I think he will in that event take you for himself, nor is it proper. [Od. 21. 322]
214.	6-6-4	here we gather, waiting day after day. [Od. 21.156]
215.	6-6-5	to reach decision making secret plans. Nor yet now to me [Il. 1. 542]
216.	6-6-6	Don’t dare get it into your mind to escape from me, Dolon. [Il. 10. 447]