Richard Carrier debates Craig Evans

[winningedge101]

We have plenty of proto-Catholic writers attacking "heresies" all over the place well before 380. Where is the mythcists denomination? Exactly, they don't make an appearance. Also I'd like to add that appealing to a conspiracy is never going to make a good argument.

[MrMacSon]

We have plenty of proto-Catholic writers attacking "heresies" all over the place well before 380. Where is the mythcists denomination? Exactly, they don't make an appearance. Also I'd like to add that appealing to a conspiracy is never going to make a good argument.

I'm not sure whether you realise the so-called heresies were oft n part of proto-Chrisitianty but were dissed as heresies as new doctrines developed.

There were many growing religions in the 1st-3rd centuries. any texts they had would have been destroyed.

Except this one - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2289

[Ulan]

We have plenty of proto-Catholic writers attacking "heresies" all over the place well before 380. Where is the mythcists denomination? Exactly, they don't make an appearance. Also I'd like to add that appealing to a conspiracy is never going to make a good argument.

Carrier-style "mythicists"? No.

But what conspiracy? I was referring to "Cunctos Populos", also known as the imperial Edict of Thessalonica, from Feb. 27 380, when Christianity was forced to follow only a single set of beliefs by imperial decree. The passage I referred to is:

We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.

Interestingly, the death penalty for heretics came before the death penalty for pagans, which was instituted in 391 for those worshiping in temples and extended 392 to performing rites at home. Doctrinal uniformity was obviously considered a higher importance to the government than elimination of paganism. The first documented execution of heretics was for Priscillian, the bishop of Avila, and 6 of his followers in 385 at Trier. They were no "mythicists" though, but their view of Christianity had more in common with Marcionites or Cathars. All his writings that were deemed heretical were burned.

While the persecution of heretics and pagans was not done that thoroughly at that point in time, which means that you can still find remnants of both for quite some time after the edict, the burning of texts was a common procedure. This was my main point: in order to find any heretic literature, it either has to be quoted in apologetic texts or have been thoroughly hidden from state persecution (like the Nag Hammadi literature).

All in all, the process of forcing Catholic Christianity as single state religion on the Roman Empire took about twelve years:

380 - The Nicean, trinitarian creed becomes state law, all churches except the Catholic Church become forbidden.
381 - Conversion from Christianity to paganism gets outlawed.
382 - All pagan cults and priests in Rome get cut off from state funding. Sacrifices to pagan gods were outlawed.
386 - the prefect of the eastern Empire gets authorized to close pagan temples
389/390 - the Serapeion in Alexandria gets destroyed, its library burned
391 - Visits to pagan temples or cult ceremonies gets outlawed.
392 - pagan rites in private homes get outlawed
393 - The Oracle of Delphi, the Olympic games, or the temple of Vesta in Rome are closed for good.

[andrewcriddle]

We have plenty of proto-Catholic writers attacking "heresies" all over the place well before 380. Where is the mythcists denomination? Exactly, they don't make an appearance. Also I'd like to add that appealing to a conspiracy is never going to make a good argument.

Carrier-style "mythicists"? No.

But what conspiracy? I was referring to "Cunctos Populos", also known as the imperial Edict of Thessalonica, from Feb. 27 380, when Christianity was forced to follow only a single set of beliefs by imperial decree. The passage I referred to is:

We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.

Interestingly, the death penalty for heretics came before the death penalty for pagans, which was instituted in 391 for those worshiping in temples and extended 392 to performing rites at home. Doctrinal uniformity was obviously considered a higher importance to the government than elimination of paganism. The first documented execution of heretics was for Priscillian, the bishop of Avila, and 6 of his followers in 385 at Trier. They were no "mythicists" though, but their view of Christianity had more in common with Marcionites or Cathars. All his writings that were deemed heretical were burned.

Priscillian was executed for sorcery not heresy. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscillian He was probably framed. (Bishop Ithacius was exiled for his role in Priscillian's death.)

Andrew Criddle

[Ulan]

Priscillian was executed for sorcery not heresy. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priscillian He was probably framed. (Bishop Ithacius was exiled for his role in Priscillian's death.)

Sure, but one of the charges was Manichaeism, which also carried the death penalty. The accusation of sorcery and having orgies was more or less part of the standard accusation during fights between church groups. The main importance of the case is that the Synod of Trier decided that the Cunctos Populos and other Theodosian laws could be used by secular courts to apply torture and capital punishment in cases of heresy, independent from the actual verdict being about sorcery. This precedent was the main objection from the church afterwards, because up to this point, the church had handled punishment of heresy.

Anyway, my main point in the context of this thread was to point out that mentioning the destruction of heretic literature by the church is not any kind of conspiracy theory. That was standard practice for hundreds of years and is one of the explanations why we have so few texts from heretic sects surviving.

[winningedge101]

Wow...lol. Never knew the Christians did that when they gained power. What assholes.