1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

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spin
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by spin »

Nothing there, TedM, but assertions. There is no question in vv.3-7 that Christ has been raised. That makes all the ifs useless. "If Christ has not been raised then we are running in vain.... Hang on. You just said hundreds of people witnessed him raised." Oh, never mind. It's all too straightforward for you.
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TedM
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by TedM »

spin wrote:Nothing there, TedM, but assertions. There is no question in vv.3-7 that Christ has been raised. That makes all the ifs useless. "If Christ has not been raised then we are running in vain.... Hang on. You just said hundreds of people witnessed him raised." Oh, never mind. It's all too straightforward for you.
You completely missed my point then, because verses 12-19 aren't about proving that Christ was raised. You are assuming they are, but really it's pretty clear that they aren't.
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by andrewcriddle »

Secret Alias wrote:Clement doesn't know anything in chapter 15 until after verse 32 or something. For some reason I know these things :confusedsmiley:
Actually Clement does know the earlier part of Chapter 15 (or he quotes Theodotus who does know) Theodotus
And when the Apostle said, “Else what shall they do who are baptised for the dead?” . . . For, he says, the angels of whom we are portions were baptised for us. But we are dead, who are deadened by this existence, but the males are alive who did not participate in this existence.

“If the dead rise not why, then, are we baptised?” Therefore we are raised up “equal to angels,” and restored to unity with the males, member for member. Now they say “those who are baptised for us, the dead,” are the angels who are baptised for us, in order that when we, too, have the Name, we may not be hindered and kept back by the Limit and the Cross from entering the Pleroma. Wherefore, at the laying on of hands they say at the end, “for the angelic redemption” that is, for the one which the angels also have, in order that the person who has received the redemption may, be baptised in the same Name in which his angel had been baptised before him. Now the angels were baptised in the beginning, in the redemption of the Name which descended upon Jesus in the dove and redeemed him. And redemption was necessary even for Jesus, in order that, approaching through Wisdom, he might not be detained by the Notion of the Deficiency in which he was inserted, as Theodotus says.
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by Secret Alias »

But the relationship between that text and Clement isn't exactly clear. It was bundled in a codex with Clementine writings but there are a number of differences between the author and Clement. It is difficult for me to believe that when the author of the Excerpts of Theodotos speaks of his own beliefs and interpretations (often times expressing heretical views) that this author could have been Clement.
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by andrewcriddle »

In any case this is a reference to 1 Corinthians 15:29 which isn't really the earlier part of the chapter anyway.

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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by Bernard Muller »

You completely missed my point then, because verses 12-19 aren't about proving that Christ was raised. You are assuming they are, but really it's pretty clear that they aren't.
Maybe verses 12-19 aren't about "proving" that Christ was raised, but only justifying by rhetoric the Resurrection. Also verses 12-19 indicate there was no (abundant) factual proof (as in 3-7) of that Resurrection:
1 Cor 15:12-19 YLT (emphasis mine),
"12 And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
13 and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;
14 and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,
15 and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
18 then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;
19 if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied"


Verse 15 is the most revealing: the Resurrection knowledge comes from God, not many still alive eyewitnesses (not even from Paul having "seen" Jesus).
The witnessing is of God, not of a resurrected Jesus.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by TedM »

Hi Bernard,

Yes, Paul is telling them why the Resurrection is important--because of the several implications of disbelief in the idea that man can rise from the dead. He isn't trying to tell them that they are wrong, but he is trying to tell them how absolutely vital it is that they not believe that dead persons do not rise. While it seems obvious to us perhaps, it apparently wasn't obvious to the Corinthians that if the dead don't rise, neither did Christ. Otherwise Paul would not have had to tell them that 2 times! - in verses 14 and 16. Since clearly that wasn't their issue of concern, there was no need to try to prove it at this point either. However, since the implication of that was there it makes sense that Paul would remind them at some point in the entire discussion of the basis for their belief that Christ had risen. I also mentioned the verses surrounding 3-11 as both providing a proper context for such reminder, and not making much sense if there was no such reminder. If you haven't already, please read my last post on this.

Regarding verse 15. I understand your point, but don't find it very convincing. It isn't a stretch to attribute the Resurrection to God himself (who else would resurrect a man?), so had he previously described details about HOW God made the resurrection apparent, it makes perfect sense. If he hadn't previously described the reason for their testimony in these verses it makes less sense. And, in such a case, wouldn't we expect him to describe that reason here if he hadn't yet said what the reason was? Why did they believe Paul's(and others') testimony? Paul doesn't say in these verses. But wouldn't you expect him to? I would - especially when such belief was on the line. Why not appeal to whatever it was that sparked the original belief in their testimony when by implication it was now on the line? Wouldn't that make the most sense to do? Yet, he doesn't do that here or in any other previous verses, if 3-11 are missing.

Additionally, we know that in Chapter 9 Paul says "Have I not seen Jesus?". If your concern is that 'The witnessing is of God, not of a resurrected Jesus', how is this to be explained? Doesn't that negate the idea that this testimony and 'knowledge' came from God directly with no direct witness of Jesus himself? Doesn't 9:1 make my point above stronger - since he could have said "we are also found false witnesses of Jesus" but instead gave credit to God?
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by Bernard Muller »

to TedM,
About your first paragraph:
12 And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
If 1 Cor 15:3-11 is not an interpolation, I would expect other words than "is preached". More something like "is known", "is proven", "was witnessed". Or "And because Christ, out of the dead hath risen, ...".
14 and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,
Why "if"? Why the negation? Why not "and/but Christ hath risen, then true is our preaching, and true also your faith,"
It isn't a stretch to attribute the Resurrection to God himself (who else would resurrect a man?)
However, verse 15 is not about attribution but about the source of information about the Resurrection"
15 "and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ,"
I do not think the purpose of this verse is to have God taking the credit for the Resurrection, which is not what the whole passage is about.
Additionally, we know that in Chapter 9 Paul says "Have I not seen Jesus?".
If also the resurrection of Jesus was doubted by the Corinthians, they would also doubt the claim of Paul "seeing" the resurrected Jesus. Paul would not want to remind them of him "seeing" Jesus (through alleged visions!) at that time.

Cordially, Bernard
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TedM
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Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by TedM »

Bernard Muller wrote:to TedM,
About your first paragraph:
12 And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
If 1 Cor 15:3-11 is not an interpolation, I would expect other words than "is preached". More something like "is known", "is proven", "was witnessed". Or "And because Christ, out of the dead hath risen, ...".
Context mattes. The previous verse (11) is:
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
So 'is preached' is not problematic at all.

14 and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,
Why "if"? Why the negation? Why not "and/but Christ hath risen, then true is our preaching, and true also your faith,"
Seriously? Because it directly follows verse 13:
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;

It isn't a stretch to attribute the Resurrection to God himself (who else would resurrect a man?)
However, verse 15 is not about attribution but about the source of information about the Resurrection"
15 "and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ,"
I do not think the purpose of this verse is to have God taking the credit for the Resurrection, which is not what the whole passage is about.
Ok, but if you remove 3-11 Paul never says how God was the source of information. That seems unlikely for reasons I explained. And, I don't see any reason to conclude that a direct witnessing of Jesus resurrected is not information they considered to have been revealed to them by God Himself.

Additionally, we know that in Chapter 9 Paul says "Have I not seen Jesus?".
If also the resurrection of Jesus was doubted by the Corinthians, they would also doubt the claim of Paul "seeing" the resurrected Jesus. Paul would not want to remind them of him "seeing" Jesus (through alleged visions!) at that time.
If they doubted then that would be the very reason to remind them - otherwise what hope is there? But, as I've stated I think the Corinthians were NOT doubting the resurrection of Jesus because Paul would have said so and made a very big deal about it. Instead he says they doubted the resurrection of the dead - and then TWICE tells them that by implication Christ himself would not have been raised if those doubters were right. So I think there were some who must have been questioning what the rising of the dead - in the future when Christ returns - meant, how it could possibly happen, and that is why focused so much in the later verses on what kind of body they would have.
Last edited by TedM on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dating

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Regarding dating, P46:
Papyrus 46 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), scribal abbreviation P {\displaystyle {\mathfrak {P}}} 46, is one of the oldest extant New Testament manuscripts in Greek, written on papyrus, with its 'most probable date' between 175 and 225.[1] Some leaves are part of the Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri, and others are in the University of Michigan Papyrus Collection.[2]
http://www.laparola.net/greco/manoscritti.php
1Cor 1:1-9:2; 9:4-14:14; 14:16-15:15;
looks like a potentially [Larry David]pretty, pretty good[/Larry David] early dating for the offending text. However, the recent Brent Nongbri article discussed here In Search of Original "Mark". Myths, Monsters and OxyMarkons may suggest that P46 is actually later, possibly later than the Lucian Recension.


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