Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Taws
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:08 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by Taws »

I believe Bart Ehrman is writing books for me to consume; not for people who are more learned in biblical writings (ya'll). He has the ability; whether you see it or not; to help us who have been spoon fed bible babble in the pews of the churches; to open our eyes and read what is "really written" in the bible; teaching us to think and compare the different bible writtings; whether we agree with him or not. He inspires us to use our minds and think for ourselves. Few bible scholars have the ability or the inclination to write in a manner that is understandable to the 2 billion christians who have not studied the bible for themselves; but have been lead by doctrine specific denominational churches.

I just purchased Robert Eisenman's James the brother of Jesus; and it appears he writes to a more knowledgeable group of fellow bible scholars (feeling he must prove every point); and after just arriving at chapter 7 of this two inch thick monster; I wish he would turn it over to Bart Ehrman, to break it down for me and the masses. I will prevail eventually, after re-reading many parts and reading the referenced works he use; if I live long enough.

Bart Ehrman is making christians open the bible and their minds; and make decisions about their religion based on what is written in the book; as apposed to what their preacher wants them to think it is about.

Here is just one example. Maybe not for you, but for the masses this is new stuff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xViFJb8P8_A

Taws
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8027
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by Peter Kirby »

Taws wrote:I just purchased Robert Eisenman's James the brother of Jesus; and it appears he writes to a more knowledgeable group of fellow bible scholars (feeling he must prove every point); and after just arriving at chapter 7 of this two inch thick monster; I wish he would turn it over to Bart Ehrman, to break it down for me and the masses. I will prevail eventually, after re-reading many parts and reading the referenced works he use; if I live long enough.
Another distinction between the authors is that Eisenman has been viewed as something of a crank when it comes to his original research as published in his popular books some years back. Not that he's wrong, but he's not representative.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
dewitness
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by dewitness »

Taws wrote:I believe Bart Ehrman is writing books for me to consume; not for people who are more learned in biblical writings (ya'll). He has the ability; whether you see it or not; to help us who have been spoon fed bible babble in the pews of the churches; to open our eyes and read what is "really written" in the bible; teaching us to think and compare the different bible writtings; whether we agree with him or not. He inspires us to use our minds and think for ourselves. Few bible scholars have the ability or the inclination to write in a manner that is understandable to the 2 billion christians who have not studied the bible for themselves; but have been lead by doctrine specific denominational churches.
I have Ehrman's "Did Jesus Exist? and it actually shows that he wants us to close our eyes and be spoon fed by him.

The very Ehrman who has written many books exposing the fraud, forgery and fiction in the NT is now claiming that the Gospels are among the best attested books from the ancient world.

See "Did Jesus Exist?" page 180--Ehrman declares the Gospels are among the best attested books of the ancient world even though it is not certain what the Gospels originally contained.

Now turn the page and go to 182--Ehrman will declare that it is absolutely true the NT accounts of Jesus is filled with discrepancies and contradictions.

Turn the page again and go to 184--Ehrman will state that the Gospels have historical problems and relate events that almost certainly did not happen.

Ehrman is displaying a "Jekyll and Hyde" approach.

Now go to page 268 of Did Jesus Exist?--The very Ehrman who has exposed the fraud, forgery and fiction of the NT Canon does NOT discuss, does NOT entertain at all, any discussion in his classroom that the Jesus character may not have existed.

Ehrman's students will probably only find out that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist by e-mails.
Roger Pearse
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:26 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by Roger Pearse »

dewitness wrote: The very Ehrman who has written many books exposing the fraud, forgery and fiction in the NT is now claiming that the Gospels are among the best attested books from the ancient world.
Would you mind giving us the exact words?

You see, I suspect there is confusion here between (a) how well has the text reached us and (b) is what the text says true? These are different things. The text of the NT is indeed the best attested of the Greek texts (the texts of the major Greek Fathers is next). There is no mystery as to why; most texts were copied by monks, and what kinds of texts do you suppose monks wanted most?

A text may be very well preserved; but the content of the text is not proven (or disproven) by the excellence of preservation or otherwise. I think the Greek novels are not especially well-preserved, in truth; but of course their contents are fictional.

So, to deal with the contradiction: Ehrman can hardly attack the preservation of the text, so he doesn't. But he is certainly very keen that we should know that the bible is not true. (How else, indeed, can the world be made safe from sobriety, chastity, and piety; the things most inconvenient to the people who have real power in our society today). That would explain why you think he is contradicting himself; because actually he is discussing two different things. His prose is terribly diffuse, so it would not surprise me if this distinction is not made clear.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
dewitness
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by dewitness »

Roger Pearse wrote:
dewitness wrote: The very Ehrman who has written many books exposing the fraud, forgery and fiction in the NT is now claiming that the Gospels are among the best attested books from the ancient world.
Would you mind giving us the exact words?

You see, I suspect there is confusion here between (a) how well has the text reached us and (b) is what the text says true? These are different things. The text of the NT is indeed the best attested of the Greek texts (the texts of the major Greek Fathers is next). There is no mystery as to why; most texts were copied by monks, and what kinds of texts do you suppose monks wanted most?

A text may be very well preserved; but the content of the text is not proven (or disproven) by the excellence of preservation or otherwise. I think the Greek novels are not especially well-preserved, in truth; but of course their contents are fictional.

So, to deal with the contradiction: Ehrman can hardly attack the preservation of the text, so he doesn't. But he is certainly very keen that we should know that the bible is not true. (How else, indeed, can the world be made safe from sobriety, chastity, and piety; the things most inconvenient to the people who have real power in our society today). That would explain why you think he is contradicting himself; because actually he is discussing two different things. His prose is terribly diffuse, so it would not surprise me if this distinction is not made clear.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
You must mean that Greek NT texts are the best attested forgeries and false attribution in the ancient world.

Do you know of any other Canon of any other religion where all the supposed authors are fake?
Diogenes the Cynic
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:59 pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

Attestation has nothing to do with historicity of content. There is no contradiction there. Homer is well attested.
dewitness
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by dewitness »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:Attestation has nothing to do with historicity of content. There is no contradiction there. Homer is well attested.
It is illogical to claim writings which are forgeries and false attribution represent attestation.

It is for that very reason why there are forgeries to make it appear as if there are multiple sources.

If there were no forgeries we would probably only have the Memoirs of the Apostles or some similar Gospel in the 2nd century or later.
dewitness
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by dewitness »

Ehrman's claim that the Gospels are among the best attested books from the ancient world is like arguing that the Isidorian Decretals are among the best attested writings of the Church.
dewitness
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:09 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by dewitness »

The fact that Ehrman is showing that New Testament books are products of forgery, plus their contents are not credible and uncertain shows that Ehrman himself has contradicted his own position that the Gospels are among the best attested books in the ancient world.

See page 180 of "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman
To begin with, even though the Gospels are among the best attested books from the ancient world, we are regrettably hindered in knowing what the authors of these books originally wrote.
The very next page, [P 181]Ehrman admits it is true that we don't know who wrote the Gospels.

On the same page, Ehrman admits or implies that of the 27 books of the NT 19 of the authors are almost certainly Fakes or falsely attributed.

In a debate about the resurrection Ehrman declared that the Gospels were fabricated from hearsay--not eyewitnesses.

Why is Ehrman continuing to expose the fraud and forgeries in the Bible but still heavily relies on the very same Bible for his own historical Jesus of Nazareth?
Roger Pearse
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:26 am

Re: Ehrman's latest book: Forgery and Counterforgery

Post by Roger Pearse »

Thanks for the encouragement, Avi. It's hard going. Been to the library today to look at some of E.'s sources. There will be more sections of the review. I shall try to keep it positive and constructive. Great big overstuffed pudding of a book, tho.
Post Reply