Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions.

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iskander
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by iskander »

A comedy , according to the Jewish Study Bible
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Secret Alias
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by Secret Alias »

Hmmm. How many comedies spawned religious festivals on the calendar? Not convinced of this. This account from Plutarch's Lives is worth mentioning. Having told how Alexander returned to Babylon amidst a variety of disquieting signs and portents just before his death Plutarch continues:
“And one day after he had undressed himself to be anointed, and was playing at ball, just as they were going to bring his clothes again, the young men who played with him perceived a man clad in the king's robes with a diadem upon his head, sitting silently upon his throne. They asked him who he was, to which he gave no answer for a good while, till at last, coming to himself, he told them his name was Dionysius, that he was of Messenia, that for some crime of which he was accused he was brought there from the seaside, and had been kept long in prison, that Serapis72 appeared to him, had freed him from his chains, conducted him to that place, and commanded him to put on the king's robe and diadem, and to sit where they found him, and to say nothing. Alexander, when he heard this, by the direction of his soothsayers, put the fellow to death, but he lost his spirits, and grew diffident concerning the protection and assistance of the gods, and suspicious of his friends.
It is clear that what the young ballplayers blundered into was the ancient Mesopotamian ritual of the “substitute king,” apparently still fully alive at the time.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by Secret Alias »

This too from Philo:
There was a certain madman named Carabbas … this man spent all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths; and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a scepter they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him; and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state.

Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out “Maris”; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by John2 »

Stephen wrote:

"No mention is made of the Tetragrammaton. So it isn't a religious text per se."

It's also not mentioned in the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes (as noted by Blumenthal here):

http://www.js.emory.edu/BLUMENTHAL/EstherSong.html

As he notes:
This history is summarized in the statement by Hacham: "And this is the only book in the entire Bible in which the name of God is not mentioned." The same type of statement is made by Nosson Scherman, the general editor of the Artscroll series: "G-d's [sic] Name does not appear in the Megillah -- the only one of the twenty-four sacred books where such a phenomenon occurs." What is strange about these two statements, and others like them, is that they are just not true.
I used to think that Esther wasn't found at Qumran because it was the only book that doesn't mention God's name, but the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes were found at Qumran.

http://dssenglishbible.com/scroll4Q106.htm

http://dssenglishbible.com/scroll4Q109.htm
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
iskander
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by iskander »

John2 wrote:Stephen wrote:

"No mention is made of the Tetragrammaton. So it isn't a religious text per se."

It's also not mentioned in the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes (as noted by Blumenthal here):

http://www.js.emory.edu/BLUMENTHAL/EstherSong.html

As he notes:
This history is summarized in the statement by Hacham: "And this is the only book in the entire Bible in which the name of God is not mentioned." The same type of statement is made by Nosson Scherman, the general editor of the Artscroll series: "G-d's [sic] Name does not appear in the Megillah -- the only one of the twenty-four sacred books where such a phenomenon occurs." What is strange about these two statements, and others like them, is that they are just not true.
I used to think that Esther wasn't found at Qumran because it was the only book that doesn't mention God's name, but the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes were found at Qumran.

http://dssenglishbible.com/scroll4Q106.htm

http://dssenglishbible.com/scroll4Q109.htm

Esther as political education



"Once upon a time a Jewish queen ruled the land. And her name was not Esther. Her name was Shelamzion Alexandra. Queen Shelamzion Alexandra reigned as queen of Judea from 76 to 67 BCE. Shelamzion became sole heir to the Hasmonean kingdom when her husband, King Alexander Janneaus (King Yannai in rabbinic sources), who reigned from 103–76 BCE, died. She had two grown sons (Aristobulus and Hyrcanus II), but she decided not to step aside for them.

In Megillat Esther, we encounter another heroine who maneuvers royal protocol to save her people. [7] Queen Esther risks her own life when she goes to the king’s chambers uninvited: “If I must die, so be it,” she says (Esther 4:16).[8]
Once there, she does not plead for help but carefully petitions the king, setting in motion a plan to undermine Haman and save the Jewish people

Torah and history converge in a remarkable way in the life of Shelamzion. If her queenship was unprecedented in the second temple period, it was not unprecedented in the Jewish imagination—Queen Esther had made it possible to imagine a Jewish queen positively.

As Tal Ilan has suggested, this moment is also crucial because it shows us that “the decision to promote the book of Esther could well be associated with the coronation of Shelamzion Alexandria” and that it may “have been part of a larger literary campaign designed to promote the leadership of women through dialogue with other contemporary points of view… which were hostile to the idea of women in power” .

Queen Shelamzion Alexandra certainly stood to benefit from Esther’s precedent. Esther may or may not have reflected the historical reality of the Persian period, but her story provided a model for a new reality in Shelamzion’s lifetime."

http://thetorah.com/jewish-queens-from- ... helamzion/
John2
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by John2 »

Wow. I never thought about that idea before, iskander. Maybe that's why Esther wasn't found at Qumran, since the DSS sect were anti-Pharisaic and Alexandra was pro-Pharisaic (as McLaren notes here):

https://books.google.com/books?id=xSOdB ... es&f=false
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by Secret Alias »

:banghead:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by Secret Alias »

Here are all references to Esther (supposedly) in pre-Nicene writers:

Esther 2:6 - 7 Clement of Alexandria Stromata 1 123 § 2 (p.77, l.13)
Esther 2:15 - 17 Origen Commentary on Romans 4 5 (p.975 - <) BP3
Esther 2:17 Origen Commentary on Romans 9 2 (p.1209) BP3
Esther 2:19 Origen Epistula ad Iulium Africanum
Esther 3:1 - 2 Origen Exhortatio ad martyrium 33 (p.28, l.21) BP3
Esther 3: 6 Hippolytus In Danielem 3 20 § 5 (p.242, l.3) BP2, 3 30 § 5 (p.256, l.18) BP2
Esther 3:13 Epistula ad Iulium Africanum
Esther 3:13 3 20 § 5 (p.242, l.3) BP2, 3 30 § 5 (p.256, l.18) BP2
Esther 3:15 Passion Pionius 12 § 6 (p.105, l.30) BP1
Esther 4:16 1 Clement 55 § 6 (p.64, l.25) BP1
Esther 4:17 Origen Commentarii in epistulam ad Romanos p.210, l.9 - < BP3, Commentarii in Iohannem 2 § 95 (p.69, l.8 - <) BP3, Commentarii in Matthaeum, 13 20 (p.234, l.29 - < >) BP3, De oratione 14 § 3 (p.331, l.23 - <) BP3, 14 § 3 (p.331, l.25 - <) BP3, Epistula ad Iulium Africanum (p.53) BP3, (p.53) BP3, Exhortatio ad martyrium 33 (p.28, l.22) BP3, Homiliae in Ps. XXXVI (latine interprete Rufino) 5 5 (p.1363) BP3
Esther 4:17 Methodius De Cibis 14 § 7 (p.447, l.11) BP2
Esther 5:1 - 2 Clement of Alexandria Paedagogue 3 12 § 5 (p.243, l.19 - V),
Esther 5:1 Origen Fragmenta e catenis in Deuteronomium A
Esther 5:1 1 Clement 59 § 3 (p.67, l.9) BP1
Esther 5:2 Hippolytus In Danielem 3 30 § 5 (p.256, l.19 - >)
Esther 6:1 - 2 Origen De Principiis 3 2 § 4 (p.170, l.277) BP3, 3 3 § 4 (p.194, l.181) BP3
Esther 6:10 - 11 Origen De Principiis 3 2 § 4 (p.172, l.282) BP3
Esther 7:9 - 10 Origen De Principiis 3 2 § 4 (p.170, l.281 - )) BP3
Esther 7:9 - 10 Hippolytus In Danielem 3 30 § 5 (p.256, l.19 - /) BP2
Esther 7:10 Hippolytus (?) Chronicon (p.110, l.29) BP2
Esther 8:7 Origen De Principiis 3 2 § 4 (p.172, l.283) BP3
Esther 8:12 Epistula ad Iulium Africanum Origen (p.53) BP3, (p.81) BP3
Esther 8:13 Philo De specialibus legibus 3 § 140 (p.148, l.12) BP8
Esther 8:14 Origen De Principiis 3 2 § 4 (p.172, l.283) BP3
Last edited by Secret Alias on Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by Secret Alias »

This is what is claimed to be a reference by Philo:
For the man who fortifies his own house like a citadel, and does not allow a single person within it to speak freely, but who behaves savagely to every one, by reason of his innate misanthropy and barbarity, which has perhaps even been increased by exercise, is a tyrant in miniature; and by his conduct now it is plainly shown that he will not stop even there if he should acquire greater power. (139) For then he will at once go forth to attack other cities and countries, and nations, after having previously enslaved his own native land, so as to prove that he is not inclined to behave mercifully to any one who shall ever become subject to him. (140) Let, then, such a man be well assured that he will not always escape punishment for his continual ill-treatment of many persons; for justice, which hates iniquity, will be his enemy, she who is the assistant and champion of those who are treated with injustice, and she will exact of him a strict account of, and reckoning for, those who have fallen into calamity through his means, (141) even if he should say that he had only inflicted blows on them to correct them, not designing to kill them. For he will not at once get off with a cheerful countenance, but he will be brought before the tribunal and examined by accurate investigators of the truth, who will inquire whether he slew him intentionally or unintentionally. And if he be found to have plotted against him with a wicked disposition, let him die; not having any excuse made for him on the ground of his being the servants' master, so as to procure his deliverance.
Not sure about this one.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Parallels between Mark 6.14-29 and the Esther traditions

Post by Secret Alias »

All the references to Origen De Principiis 3.2.4 is summed up (surprisingly) in this section of text:

We said, indeed, in the foregoing pages, that certain recollections of good or evil actions were suggested to us either by the act of divine providence or by the opposing powers, as is shown in the book of Esther, when Artaxerxes had not remembered the services of that just man Mordecai, but, when wearied out with his nightly vigils, had it put into his mind by God to require that the annals of his great deeds should be read to him; whereon, being reminded of the benefits received from Mordecai, he ordered his enemy Haman to be hanged, but splendid honours to be conferred on him, and impunity from the threatened danger to be granted to the whole of the holy nation. On the other hand, however, we must suppose that it was through the hostile influence of the devil that the suggestion was introduced into the minds of the high priests and the scribes which they made to Pilate, when they came and said, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. The design of Judas, also, respecting the betrayal of our Lord and Saviour, did not originate in the wickedness of his mind alone.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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