Lordship in the epistle of James.

[iskander]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, iskander, but regarding the doctrine of works and faith in the Letter of James, this is arguably yet another similarity between Jewish Christianity and the DSS. In addition to the numerous messianic proof texts that both sects used (e.g., the fallen booth of David, the Star Prophecy, a prophet like Moses, "strike the shepherd," "the fountain of living waters," "I will be his father, and he will be my son" and Is. 61), there is Hab. 2:4, which is used twice by Paul to defend his doctrine of faith without works.

Rom. 1:17: "For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'"

Gal. 3:10-11: "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.' Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because 'the righteous will live by faith.'”

Paul also attacks Jewish Christians in 2 Cor. 11 and says in v. 15 that "their end will be what their actions deserve," using the same word (ergon) that he and James use regarding the issue of faith and works:

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they [i.e., the Hebrew "super-apostles" mentioned in 11:5] boast about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2041.htm

But the Habakkuk Pesher interprets Hab. 2:4 in a way that is in line with James:

"Its interpretation concerns all Doers of the Torah in the House of Judah, whom God will save from the House of Judgment because of their works and faith in the Righteous Teacher."

Vermes has this as, "Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law in the House of Judah, whom God will deliver from the House of judgement because of their suffering and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness," translating the word amal as "suffering." But amal has the sense of labor/toil/work. i.e, hard work.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5999.htm

As Del Tondo puts this issue:

The DSS author interprets the verse, however, to require faithfulness for salvation. The Pesher then rejects the idea that justification is without adding works to faith. Professor Eisenman asks us how can we credibly believe this Pesher on Habakkuk 2:4 is directed at anyone else but Paul. As we shall see next, the DSS Poor are up in arms about the "spouter of Lies" who opposes the Zaddik. Are we to believe it is merely coincidence again the Ebion of the DSS just so happen to want to show Habakkuk 2:4 -one of Paul's favorite proof texts- does not stand for an idea that Paul alone was known to espouse?

https://books.google.com/books?id=3VFns ... ks&f=false

Thank you.

What has James in mind for "works". When I read James 2 I thought of the efforts of communities to live without the imposition of arbitrary obligations of obscure provenance .Vivan las caenas is a political illustration of Jas 2.17-26. Galatians is the same political conflict in a religious setting.


Vivan las caenas!
" Long live the chains! Is a slogan coined by the Spanish absolutist in 1814 when, on the return from exile of Fernando VII ,... it was intended thereby justify the king's decision to ignore the Constitution of 1812 and the rest of the legislative work of the Cortes of Cadiz , ruling as an absolute monarch "
Wikipedia


What could " works " mean ?

[John2]

This book puts it this way:

The 'righteous' for Paul's counterpart in Qumran means all who in the house of Judah practice the Law. All such will be spared the final judgment. Thus in Qumran, as in the other expressions of Judaism in this period, righteousness has to do with works. 'Faith' or 'faithfulness' means those who maintained through their labors and afflictions their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness.

https://books.google.com/books?id=WSSdB ... er&f=false

[iskander]

This book puts it this way:

The 'righteous' for Paul's counterpart in Qumran means all who in the house of Judah practice the Law. All such will be spared the final judgment. Thus in Qumran, as in the other expressions of Judaism in this period, righteousness has to do with works. 'Faith' or 'faithfulness' means those who maintained through their labors and afflictions their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness.

https://books.google.com/books?id=WSSdB ... er&f=false

Yes, but what does it mean to people living now in a gentile society? Or more directly : what could " works " mean for Christians? ( or anybody else)'
Is the RCC a Jewish religion?

[John2]

Although Paul uses different words for "labor" and "toil" than in the faith vs. works issue, in 2 Cor. 11 (in which he attacks Jewish Christians for their Torah-based works), he goes on to contrast his Torah-free hard work with theirs:

2 Cor. 11:23-30:

"Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness."

Then, and most interestingly to me in this context (and as he does in another context concerning Jewish Christians in Gal. 1:20), particularly since the DSS refer to the person who opposed the Teacher of Righteousness as "the Liar," he protests that he is not a liar:

2 Cor. 11:31:

"The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying."

Then he mentions Damascus (which he distinguishes from "the city of the Damascenes"):

2 Cor. 11:32:

"In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me."

Is it only a coincidence that the Damascus Document refers to someone called the Liar who rejected the Torah in opposition to someone called the Righteous One? And mentions the Way and the new covenant in a place called Damascus? And uses the same messianic proof texts that Christians use?

[John2]

I noticed something in Hegesippus that might tie in to Is. 19:20 (which refers to God sending a "savior"):

EH 2.23:

"Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him, ‘What is the gate of Jesus?’ and he replied that he was the Savior. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ."

I wonder if this is the same word as LXX Is. 19:20.

[iskander]

I noticed something in Hegesippus that might tie in to Is. 19:20 (which refers to God sending a "savior"):

EH 2.23:

"Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him, ‘What is the gate of Jesus?’ and he replied that he was the Savior. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ."

I wonder if this is the same word as LXX Is. 19:20.

Thank you John . I am neither religious nor scholar, and therefore I willingly accept your views on this subject.
I still do not understand what religion means by works as a mean of pleasing god. (justification) .


Jas 2.19 says , You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Does the belief in God require circumcision or acceptance of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, as instances of works.

Jas 2.21 says, 21Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? . Is this the kind of thing that is meant for works?


Please , if this conversation irritates you do not answer and we will remain friends, ( if you answer we will also remain friends

[John2]

It's not irritating at all. I like talking to you, iskander. It's only a matter of time for me. I don't own a computer and am limited to two hours a day at the library (or when I have time at work). I've only got 20 minutes left today and I need to do some other things with it, and I'll get back to this conversation tomorrow.

[John2]

I'm running out of time today and can't cite from it now, but this book discusses the meaning of "amal" (or hard work), which is used in tandem with "faith" in the Habakkuk Pesher.

https://books.google.com/books?id=_ZNdm ... ng&f=false

[iskander]

It's not irritating at all. I like talking to you, iskander. It's only a matter of time for me. I don't own a computer and am limited to two hours a day at the library (or when I have time at work). I've only got 20 minutes left today and I need to do some other things with it, and I'll get back to this conversation tomorrow.

I also like talking to you , John. Take as long as you like and be as brief as you like.

[John2]

iskander wrote:

Jas 2.19 says , You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Does the belief in God require circumcision or acceptance of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, as instances of works.

Jas 2.21 says, 21Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? . Is this the kind of thing that is meant for works?

I guess it depends on who you ask. James 2:8-11 says:

"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, 'You shall not commit adultery,' also said, 'You shall not murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

And in Gal. 2:11-13, Paul says:

"When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray."

But the Letter of James is addressed to Jews (or "To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations"), and the "certain men ... from James ... who belonged to the circumcision group" seem to only be concerned about Jews, even if Barnabas was also "led astray" by them. And in Gal. 2:9 says, "James, Cephas and John ... agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised."

The Habakkuk Pesher also says that Jews who observe the Torah will be saved (in the "amal" passage):

"Its interpretation concerns all Doers of the Torah in the House of Judah, whom God will save from the House of Judgment because of their works [amal] and faith in the Righteous Teacher."

And James 4:11 says:

"Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge."

And James 1:23 and 1:25 say:

"For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror."

"But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing."

But the DSS (like Christianity) accepted converts. As the Damascus Document puts it:

"But when the period corresponding to the number of these years is complete, there will no longer be any joining with the house of Judah but rather each one standing up on his (own) watchtower."

And:

"...a Book of Remembrance was written before Him for God-Fearers and for those considering His name, until God shall reveal salvation [yesha] and justification to those fearing His Name."

As Wikipedia puts it:

"A God-fearer or Godfearer was a member of a class of non-Jewish (gentile) sympathizers to Second Temple Judaism mentioned in the Christian New Testament and other contemporary sources such as synagogue inscriptions in diaspora Hellenistic Judaism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God-fearer

Acts 13:16: "So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: 'Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen.'"

Acts 13:26: "“Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent."

But the window was closing ("But when the period corresponding to the number of these years is complete, there will no longer be any joining with the house of Judah"). Gentiles could join the "House of Judah" in the DSS, but they were expected to do the Torah in order to be saved. ""Its interpretation concerns all Doers of the Torah in the House of Judah, whom God will save from the House of Judgment because of their works and faith in the Righteous Teacher."