Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

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JoeWallack
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Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbBD7VIJ4cc

JW:
New Revised Standard Version
The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) is an English translation of the Bible published in 1989 by the National Council of Churches. It is a revision of the Revised Standard Version, which was itself an update of the American Standard Version.[2]
16
NRSV RSV ASV
8 So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.[a]

The Shorter Ending of Mark
[[And all that had been commanded them they told briefly to those around Peter. And afterward Jesus himself sent out through them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.b]]

The Longer Ending of Mark
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
9 [[Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. 10 She went out and told those who had been with him, while they were mourning and weeping. 11 But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it.

Jesus Appears to Two Disciples
12 After this he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. 13 And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them.

Jesus Commissions the Disciples
14 Later he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were sitting at the table; and he upbraided them for their lack of faith and stubbornness, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.[c] 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news[d] to the whole creation. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands,[e] and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

The Ascension of Jesus
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and proclaimed the good news everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that accompanied it.[f]]]

Footnotes:
Mark 16:8 Some of the most ancient authorities bring the book to a close at the end of verse 8. One authority concludes the book with the shorter ending; others include the shorter ending and then continue with verses 9–20. In most authorities verses 9–20 follow immediately after verse 8, though in some of these authorities the passage is marked as being doubtful.
Mark 16:8 Other ancient authorities add Amen
Mark 16:14 Other ancient authorities add, in whole or in part, And they excused themselves, saying, “This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits. Therefore reveal your righteousness now”—thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, “The term of years of Satan’s power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was handed over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more, that they may inherit the spiritual and imperishable glory of righteousness that is in heaven.”
Mark 16:15 Or gospel
Mark 16:18 Other ancient authorities lack in their hands
Mark 16:20 Other ancient authorities add Amen
8 And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Mag′dalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. 10 She went out and told those who had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it.

Jesus Appears to Two Disciples
12 After this he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. 13 And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them.

Jesus Commissions the Disciples
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

The Ascension of Jesus
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen.[a]

Footnotes:
Mark 16:20 Some of the most ancient authorities bring the book to a close at the end of verse 8. One authority concludes the book by adding after verse 8 the following: But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Other authorities include the preceding passage and continue with verses 9–20. In most authorities verses 9–20 follow immediately after verse 8; a few authorities insert additional material after verse 14
8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.

9 b Now when he was risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. 10 She went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And they, when they heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, disbelieved.

12 And after these things he was manifested in another form unto two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country. 13 And they went away and told it unto the rest: neither believed they them.

14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the [c]gospel to the whole creation. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. 17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with [d]new tongues; 18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.

Footnotes:
Mark 16:1 Or, Jacob
Mark 16:9 The two oldest Greek manuscripts, and some other authorities, omit from verse 9 to the end. Some other authorities have a different ending to the Gospel.
Mark 16:15 See marginal note on 1:1.
Mark 16:17 Some ancient authorities omit new.


Joseph

INTERPRETER, n. One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.

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Charles Wilson
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Post by Charles Wilson »

Moffatt's is interesting here:

"...And they fled out of the tomb, for they were seized with terror and beside themselves. They said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid of —"

Thus, the reason for the additions to the end of Mark is hidden "in the interest of readability"...I suppose...
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JoeWallack
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Apologists Now! God I Love the Sound of Psalms in the Morning.

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Peter Head has written a pretty good article here regarding the likelihood that
16:8 is original:

A Case against the Longer Ending of Mark
4. Method
Finally, in terms of method, it is a general principle within New Testament textual criticism to work on the principle that the reading which explains the other readings is to be preferred. Snapp attempts to explain the ending at Mark 16:8 as an editorial emendation by “overly meticulous scribes,” that is, as a deletion of material within their exemplars.

But evidence for this sort of speculative conjecture is lacking. A stronger argument is that an ending at Mark 16:8 explains the origin of the other readings. It is an unusual and abrupt ending, which gave rise to a natural desire for a clearer ending, and this is evident in both the Shorter and the Longer endings to Mark. This is the tendency of the textual tradition as already noted.
For those not familiar with Head he posts at Evangelical Textual Criticism
where the scholarship is good by Evangelical standards (not so good by Skeptical standards). I think he is the best Bible scholar posting there.


Joseph

"So there were two Mary Magdalenes referred to by Mark." - Eusebius

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gryan
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Re: Apologists Now! God I Love the Sound of Psalms in the Morning.

Post by gryan »

JoeWallack wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:08 pm
Joseph

"So there were two Mary Magdalenes referred to by Mark." - Eusebius

The New Porphyry
Re: Eusebius suggests that there were two women known as Mary Magdalene.

"It is perfectly reasonable to say that two Marys came from the same place, Magdala. There is then no difficulty in saying that one of them was the Magdalene who, in Matthew, came to the tomb late on the sabbath; and then again that the other, also a Magdalene, came there early in the morning, in John, and that she is the one of whom it is stated in Mark (according to some copies) that 'he had cast seven devils' out of her, and also presumably the one who heard the words 'Do not touch me' –but not the one in Matthew, about whom, even if she too was certainly from Magdala, the divine scripture makes no such derogatory statement."

https://www.thetextofthegospels.com/202 ... cribe.html

Wow. Thanks for pointing out this claim which is, from where I sit, both "reasonable" and obviously wrong. It says something about Eusebius's view on gospel inter-textuality. He fails to take into account a gospel writer's editorial freedom and so also takes literary differences too seriously as "history."
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Re: Apologists Now! God I Love the Sound of Psalms in the Morning.

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gryan wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:08 am Re: Eusebius suggests that there were two women known as Mary Magdalene.

"It is perfectly reasonable to say that two Marys came from the same place, Magdala. There is then no difficulty in saying that one of them was the Magdalene who, in Matthew, came to the tomb late on the sabbath; and then again that the other, also a Magdalene, came there early in the morning, in John, and that she is the one of whom it is stated in Mark (according to some copies) that 'he had cast seven devils' out of her, and also presumably the one who heard the words 'Do not touch me' –but not the one in Matthew, about whom, even if she too was certainly from Magdala, the divine scripture makes no such derogatory statement."

https://www.thetextofthegospels.com/202 ... cribe.html

Wow. Thanks for pointing out this claim which is, from where I sit, both "reasonable" and obviously wrong. It says something about Eusebius's view on gospel inter-textuality. He fails to take into account a gospel writer's editorial freedom and so also takes literary differences too seriously as "history."
... because it is quite clear that a third Mary of Magdala was at work in GMark ;)
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JoeWallack
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The Head of the Evangelical Class

Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqISX2o0a4A

JW:
A Case against the Longer Ending of Mark
2. Church Fathers
I’m not persuaded that Snapp does justice to all the patristic evidence in favor of ending the Gospel at Mark 16:8, including the important evidence of Eusebius (and Jerome). It seems clear to me that in his letter to Marinus, in discussing the problem of harmonizing Matthew 28:1 and Mark 16:9, Eusebius not only quotes from the perspective of the person who would regard the Longer Ending as spurious—where he reports that “the accurate copies” end at 16:8—but that he himself also affirms that this was the ending of Mark “in nearly all the copies” (to Marinus 1).8 Eusebius does also attempt a harmonization, for the sake of argument, assuming that the Longer Ending was part of the text of Mark, but Eusebius is offering a complex double sort of approach here.9 What is also clear is that, in the construction of his influential Canon Tables, Eusebius did not include the Longer Ending of Mark.10
Eusebius (U say Eusebias, I say Eusebs) is the interesting evidence here. In an irony that I think "Mark" would really appreciate(ion), Christianity generally thinks of Eusebius as the most important witness for Christian historical assertians yet here he is the most important evidence against the most important Christian historical assertion, that there was historical witness to a resurrected Jesus.

Also, regarding Eusebius' witness here for 16:8, there is something for everyone not to like. Believers can't really dismiss Eusebius in general as lacking credibility because they rely(must resist insulting impulse. Not..resisting..well) on him for so much. On the other hand, Skeptics tend to rely on Eusebius as whatever the opposite of Gospel is here even though in general Skeptics rate Eusebius as lacking credibility:

Was Eusebius A Truth Challenged Advocate For Jesus? - The Argument Resurrected

It's instructive to note that the complete Eusebius evidence damning the LE was never translated into English until relatively recent times by amateur Roger Pearse. No Christian Bible scholar wanted to be tagged as the one who introduced it (Stephan Carlson look out!).


Joseph

""They like to say: 'Oh, Jesus didn't need an AR-15. How many AR-15s do you think Jesus woulda had?'" she said. "Well, he didn't have enough to keep his government from killing him." - Lauren Boebert

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StephenGoranson
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Post by StephenGoranson »

I admit that there is much, Joe W., that I do not understand of your writing. When you wrote that Roger Pearse is an "amateur," is that intended as a contrast to you, and if so how?
Secret Alias
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Post by Secret Alias »

Good point. I don't know why he brought up Roger in the first place. It really doesn't help the argument regarding the LE.
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JoeWallack
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Post by JoeWallack »

StephenGoranson wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:29 am I admit that there is much, Joe W., that I do not understand of your writing. When you wrote that Roger Pearse is an "amateur," is that intended as a contrast to you, and if so how?
JW:
It's instructive to note that the complete Eusebius evidence damning the LE was never translated into English until relatively recent times by amateur Roger Pearse. No Christian Bible scholar wanted to be tagged as the one who introduced it (Stephan Carlson look out!).
If you don't understand this, that's on you. (Jesus, the subject of the first sentence is Pearse and the subject of the second sentence is Christian Bible scholar. And you wonder if the comparison is between Pearse and me). While I'm at it, regarding Secret Agent Man, let's just say I would kind of hope he would agree with you. Not to mention, as I value "Mark's" irony so much, SAM makes an off-topic comment about me making an off-topic comment.


Joseph

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StephenGoranson
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Re: Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Post by StephenGoranson »

Again unclear. If you choose to write clearly, I will try again,
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