Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

Thanks. It sounds like it is suggesting that the early Mark document could have differed from the canon because it's called a Notebook by Roberts.
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:51 am Andrew, Can you be more specific about Roberts' original theory in 1954?

Was he theorizing that a copy of Mark's canonical Gospel came to Egypt early on, like 50 AD, and then retracted this idea and then retracted the idea of an early date? Or was he theorizing that an early version or edition of Mark's gospel, different from the canonical gospel came out in Egypt in the early period, ie. 1st to 2nd century AD, and then retracted the idea of an early version?
See The Codex

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rakovsky
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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andrewcriddle wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:58 am
See The Codex

Andrew Criddle
Thanks for the link. In that page, Roberts theorizes that Mark in Rome, per Tradition, wrote down Peter's memories around the time of Peter's death, ie. 63-67 AD, and that this was probably in a more informal tablet/parchment form than what was found in the early 2nd century in Alexandria in a codex form.

This goes along with the pattern of elements of "To Theodore" fitting into ideas and themes in fashion around the time that "Secret Mark" was "discovered." This is considered a sign of forgery, ie. that forgeries (eg. the early 19th century Mormon story of Amerindians being descendants of the Israelites) tend to fit into ideas current in the time of their "discovery" that later become outdated.
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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rakovsky wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:13 pm I just read in Peter Jeffrey's The Secret Gospel of Mark Unveiled that M. Smith chose for one of his publishers "Da Free John", the leader of a strange sex cult in the Pacific islands accused of sexual exploitation of members. This choice would seem quite strange for such a respectable Columbia University professor writing very serious academic literature. Sometimes things like this are wholly out of step with expectations.
That fits with what Smith reportedly said to Robert M. Price. It also fits with the guru persona he was putting on in the life of Jesus BBC series.

Do you know what "Da Free John" published from M. Smith's writings?
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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gryan wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:36 pm
rakovsky wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:13 pm I just read in Peter Jeffrey's The Secret Gospel of Mark Unveiled that M. Smith chose for one of his publishers "Da Free John", the leader of a strange sex cult in the Pacific islands accused of sexual exploitation of members. This choice would seem quite strange for such a respectable Columbia University professor writing very serious academic literature. Sometimes things like this are wholly out of step with expectations.
That fits with what Smith reportedly said to Robert M. Price. It also fits with the guru persona he was putting on in the life of Jesus BBC series.

Do you know what "Da Free John" published from M. Smith's writings?
Thanks for reminding me of Morton Smith's veiled admission in Price's article. The evidence like this piles up. I forgot to include it in my list of reasons why it's spurious.

To answer your question, Da Free John said:
This is the secret Teaching. Baptism is the secret method. Recently we published a book called The Secret Gospel, by Morton Smith, about a fragment of a letter by Clement of Alexandria, who lived in the second century. It contains a brief description of a secret process of Initiation or Baptism engaged by Jesus with his intimate circle, those who had passed through the initial process of listening, who had been converted and who had shown the evidence of a true response, who were eventually brought to either Jesus or one of his empowered disciples and Baptized spiritually.
https://beezone.com/adida/firegospel/th ... ospel.html
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DCHindley
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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Rak,

You do realize that he published originally in 1973:

The Secret Gospel ; the discovery and interpretation of the Secret Gospel according to Mark
Smith, Morton, 1915-1991
New York : Harper & Row, [1973]
ix, 148 pages : illustrations ; 22 cm

Clement of Alexandria and a secret Gospel of Mark.
Smith, Morton, 1915-1991.
Cambridge, Mass., Harvard University Press, 1973.
x, 452 pages illustrations 25 cm

Harper & Row, now that's a hotbed of sexual perversions. Yesiree. As for Harvard University Press, think of how many young people have had sex at that university for the very first time!!! Shocking!

Looks like The Dawn Horse Press published this book "in cooperation with Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc.," as part of their Laughing Man series.

Per the face sheet for The Laughing Man Series "The Dawn Horse Press is dedicated to the publication, in the Laughing Man Series, of works of authentic philosophical, religious, and spiritual genius from the Great Tradition in order to foster the spirit of mutual understanding and cooperation between people and, beyond that, to help establish a genuine spiritual culture of respect, service, love, self transcendence, and ultimate God-Realization." The term "Great Tradition" is used here in the sociological sense.

I seem to have bought The Dawn Horse edition in 1984.
In 1973, Morton Smith, a professor of ancient history at Columbia University, published two books about what he called the “Secret Gospel” of Mark.1 The gospel that he had (by his own report) discovered in the library of a Greek Orthodox monastery in the Judean desert comprised fragmentary passages that were stated to be drawn from a longer (or “mystical”) version of the Gospel of Mark. The gospel passages appeared as quotations in a letter purportedly written by Clement of Alexandria in the second century — a letter (written in Greek) that Smith found in the monastery library in a hand-written copy dating (based on paleographic evidence) from the eighteenth century. Ever since the publication of Smith’s two books on “Secret Mark”, there has been much scholarly controversy over the authenticity of — and the motives behind — Smith’s research.

As of the publication date of this [edition of the] book (early 2011), certain fundamental questions have been answered with a great (or even an absolute) degree of definitiveness — as a result of which there is a strong case for accepting Smith’s original evaluation of the second-century letter as an authentic Clementine document and his evaluation of the quotations contained therein as authentic remnants of a longer version of Mark that is otherwise lost.2

Many years ago, Avatar Adi Da identified “Secret Mark” as a document of particular importance. Its importance lies in its clear suggestion that there was an esoteric (and, literally, secret) form of Spiritual initiation given by Jesus of Galilee to his qualified disciples. Thus, in writing His Rendering of the New Testament gospel story (in Part Six of The Pneumaton, pp. 299–331), Avatar Adi Da chose to include “Secret Mark” among the texts that He drew on.

Clement’s letter was the starting point for section 1, and the quotations from “Secret Mark” were the starting point for section 18, in Adi Da’s writing of Part Six."
Adi Da Samraj was a weirdo all right, but I don't see drooling sex pervert in the words above. Them new agers ...
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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In 1957, Smith became a teacher at Columbia University.
https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/872354

Also, in 1957, "Avatar Adi Da's mysterious impulse to 'Learn Man' brought Him to attend Columbia University, where He received His bachelor's degree in philosophy."
https://www.adidam.org/adi-da/biography-2

I myself became somewhat familiar with Adi Da's teachings by reading a book by one of his students-- David Deida's fictional, but semi-autobiographical book, "Wild Nights" (2005).

For what it is worth, although Smith is oh so much more literate than little me, and although I am not endorsing what he did, I think I get where he was coming from (in psycho-sexual-mystery-religious terms) when he so expertly and convincingly IMHO forged Secret Mark.
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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It's amazing to prove things with no evidence. Any thoughts on curing cancer?
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rakovsky
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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gryan wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:58 am In 1957, Smith became a teacher at Columbia University.
https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/872354

Also, in 1957, "Avatar Adi Da's mysterious impulse to 'Learn Man' brought Him to attend Columbia University, where He received His bachelor's degree in philosophy."
https://www.adidam.org/adi-da/biography-2

I myself became somewhat familiar with Adi Da's teachings by reading a book by one of his students-- David Deida's fictional, but semi-autobiographical book, "Wild Nights" (2005).

For what it is worth, although Smith is oh so much more literate than little me, and although I am not endorsing what he did, I think I get where he was coming from (in psycho-sexual-mystery-religious terms) when he so expertly and convincingly IMHO forged Secret Mark.
Yes, the reasoning could have been like the other New Age gospels that Smith was defending to Roberts as authentic because of their faith, except that Smith was far more skilled, being an expert on Clement of Alex.

It seems a different mindset than what I'm familiar with. Do you want to wrote a few words more? In the documentary where Smith talks about Secret Mark, clergy are shown chanting and Eastern Orthodoxy is presented as if it has a secret mystery style of rites compared to Western Christianity, but I felt that the documentary was really overdoing that aspect of Orthodoxy, being Orthodox myself. It's not as if Catholicism doesn't have the sacraments, or that chanting means it uses secret initiation.
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Re: Having It Both Ways With Secret Mark

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rakovsky wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:12 am
gryan wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:58 am In 1957, Smith became a teacher at Columbia University.
https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/872354

Also, in 1957, "Avatar Adi Da's mysterious impulse to 'Learn Man' brought Him to attend Columbia University, where He received His bachelor's degree in philosophy."
https://www.adidam.org/adi-da/biography-2
Yes, the reasoning could have been like the other New Age gospels that Smith was defending... except that Smith was far more skilled, being an expert on Clement of Alex.

It seems a different mindset than what I'm familiar with. Do you want to wrote a few words more?
Robert M. Price wrote:
"In 1985 I asked Morton Smith how he responded to charges of forgery, recently renewed in Per Beskow's excellent book Strange Tales About Jesus: a Survey of Unfamiliar Gospels (Fortress, 1983). He told me the now-familiar story of the custodians of the manuscript secreting it away out of embarrassment at the notoriety Smith's book The Secret Gospel had brought them, henceforth wanting to suppress the evidence. He asked, furthermore, what business Beskow had in condemning all the more recent New Age gospels as spurious: if they embodied someone's faith, weren't they authentic gospels, no matter who wrote them or when? Later I wondered if his words did not apply equally, even especially, to his own Secret Mark!" http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_secret.htm

What strikes me about Robert M. Prices's story is that when Smith spoke to him, he seemed to be speaking as if to a fellow superior scholar. I think Smith had a justified superiority complex: He was extraordinarily skilled at reading ancient texts. Price is similar, as the quoted essay shows: He too was/is extraordinarily skilled at reading ancient texts, and also, at detecting myth/separating myth form history.

Part of Price's story is Smith's criterion for evaluating the authenticity of "New Age gospels"--"if they embodied someone's faith, weren't they authentic gospels, no matter who wrote them or when?"

It seems that Secret Mark embodied the faith of Adi Da, for whom it did not much matter who wrote it or when. In the documentary, where Smith speaks more like a believer/mystagog than like a scholar, he was an embodiment of Adi Da's faith.

The conversation between Price and Smith happened in '85, which was not long after Adi Da had used Secret Mark as part of his own written Gospel. viewtopic.php?p=123623#p123623

Given all that, I think Prices's suspicion that Smith wrote Secret Mark is quite persuasive.
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