Proofs That Jesus Existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:40 pm
1. In Galatians, Paul refers to a Jesus having existed as a human in the recent past, JAMES' brother, and born of a woman under the Law and a descendant of Abraham and crucified.
Paul refers to a Jesus

Bernard's bolded statement is bold,

Therefore Jesus existed

(PS. bonus 'born of a woman', 'a descendant of Abraham', and crucified (only real people get that)
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MrMacSon
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:40 pm 2. Galatians is found in the same Bible as the Gospels, which tell stories about Jesus of Nazareth.
3. Jesus of Nazareth can only be one and the same as the Jesus of Galatians.
Therefore ... Jesus existed
Bernard Muller
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Bernard Muller »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:46 pm
Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:40 pm
1. In Galatians, Paul refers to a Jesus having existed as a human in the recent past, JAMES' brother, and born of a woman under the Law and a descendant of Abraham and crucified.
Paul refers to a Jesus

Bernard's bolded statement is bold,

Therefore Jesus existed

(PS. bonus 'born of a woman', 'a descendant of Abraham', and crucified (only real people get that)
Consider, Paul's historical Jesus, http://historical-jesus.info/6.html and then http://historical-jesus.info/7.html

Cordially, Bernard
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MrMacSon
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by MrMacSon »

Proof #9998 that Jesus existed -
Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:20 pm Consider, Paul's historical Jesus, http://historical-jesus.info/6.html and then http://historical-jesus.info/7.html
- Bernard is confident to post clickbait #9677 and #9678 to historical hyphen Jesus to BC&H Forum
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mlinssen
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by mlinssen »

The most pertinent question should be: are you willing to be proven wrong?
Do you even consider the possibility that most everything you believe in is a mere fallacy, that your entire house of cards will come tumbling down?

Bernard?
Bernard Muller
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
Bernard is confident to post clickbait #9677 and #9678 to historical hyphen Jesus to BC&H Forum
I posted these so-called clickbaits but I abstained to write next: Therefore ... Jesus existed. You are the one who did that.
The reason I did not conclude "therefore Jesus existed" is because these two clickbaits do not allow me to say Jesus existed or not.
So don't blame me for something I did not write.

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard Muller
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Bernard Muller »

to mlinssen,
The most pertinent question should be: are you willing to be proven wrong?
Do you even consider the possibility that most everything you believe in is a mere fallacy, that your entire house of cards will come tumbling down?

Bernard?
I have been proven wrong by the like of Ben and Carrier and even myself. And I made deletions, modifications accordingly.
A fallacy? No because I let the evidence (which I check carefully) and not opinions be my guide. And I am not avoiding difficulties and issues. And I don't hide behind some internet appellation.
My methodology? here is the main points, from http://historical-jesus.info/author.html

More about my methodology:
a) Stay always within the historical, social, cultural & religious (ancient) contexts, when studying each event & writing.
b) Acknowledge that people in the 1st/2nd century (most of them illiterate) had some common sense (& religious aspirations) and were living mostly in a secular, "low-tech" (& unscholarly!) world: they thought in real time (their own day to day present).
c) Consider the (early) Christian texts as written by "flesh & blood "persons (and not necessarily scholars!) likely to have human motives (sometimes very obvious), and as addressed to contemporaries. Then research the circumstances surrounding their compositions.
d) Have an all-encompassing view: everything of any pertinence has to be investigated, from all sources available, more so the closest (in time) to the facts.
e) Determine with accuracy (and great efforts!) the sequence of events, timing and the dating of writings (that's lacking into many scholarly works), because that provides another dimension, the most crucial one: many (preceding & following) points are considerably affected by the dating & sequencing.
f) Do not charge with some theory/concept (yours or borrowed) because it suits you (unfortunately, agenda-driven works are prevalent nowadays).
g) Sort out the evidence and check it in depth (accuracy, validity, context, correct translation, etc., for each bits), by way of critical analysis. Justify any rejection with good reasons, preferably many of them.
h) Do not ignore "down to earth", obvious, mundane or trivial details (usually considered unworthy of scholarly interest). Do not overlook contradictions and oddities (as you would for the work of a subordinate, as a detective would for a suspect, as a legal officer would for an eyewitness!). Pay attention to "against the grain" and embarrassing bits (they might be telling!).
i) Follow the evidence, stay close to it, allow it to "discipline" & direct you: avoid free intellectual extrapolations & speculations (we have enough of those!).
j) Practice reality checks along the way: avoid absurdities.
k) Stay on the right track, on solid ground; do not hesitate to turn back when a trail is disappearing; explore all options, but remember, only one can be correct (& not necessarily the first one which pops out from the top of your head!).
l) Accept what you discover, rather than decide first what to find & reject.
m) Be scrupulous: "fudging" & "ignoring" NOT allowed (why should I fool myself & my readers? And this website will not advance my career or make money for me!).
n) Reject ill-substantiated assumptions, even if they are widely "swallowed" (beware of "studies" which accept them, either unannounced ("transparent") or with a short introduction!).
o) Look somewhere else if you need long discussions to justify your position.
p) Provide (concisely & accurately) the whole evidence & argumentation for each step (to keep you honest and prevent unproven claims to creep in): each piece of the puzzle must stand on its own.
q) Go back over all the preceding points because later findings are bound to have implications on previous understandings (and vice versa. I never said it was an "auto-pilot" one-way process. Beware of simplistic methodologies!). Examine back everything, including the options you chose along the way (everything has to fit, but keep observing all the points!). Do it over & over, again & again ...

This is what I tried to abide by, but if any one of my readers objects on these points or thinks I do not adhere to them (or missed some other ones), please let me know (but be specific!). Contact me here.

And if, (despite) complying with all the aforementioned, overall & throughout COHERENCE of the reconstruction is achieved, then you succeeded.
If not, well, either it cannot be done (according to the available evidence) OR you went wrong someplace!

Furthermore, this kind of study should not be a vehicle for (or driven by) anti-Christian or pro-Christian propaganda (or bias)! Also, it should not be influenced by any author's peculiar fixation(s), source of income or/and "market" consideration. And beware of those works which use the "historical Jesus" in order to showcase a scholar/professor's field of expertise, such as old-fashioned theology, in low demand otherwise.

Cordially, Bernard
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arnoldo
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by arnoldo »

1. If Jesus did not exist intelligent people would not endlessly question His existence.
2. Intelligent people endlessly question His existence.
3. Therefore Jesus exists.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Secret Alias »

I have been proven wrong by the like of Ben
No shame in being beaten by an Oxford alumni.
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JoeWallack
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ARGUMENT FROM EVIDENCE OF FORGED EVIDENCE

Post by JoeWallack »

ARGUMENT FROM EVIDENCE OF FORGED EVIDENCE

1) It's generally agreed that parts of the TF are Christian forgery.

2) Some of this forgery is likely a Christian reaction to whatever was original.

3) This "indicate a passage original to Josephus that has been adjusted and added to by later Christian scribes rather than a wholesale interpolation."
JESUS MYTHICISM 7: JOSEPHUS, JESUS AND THE ‘TESTIMONIUM FLAVIANUM’ (What this indicates is the lack of good Internal evidence that the TF is original).

4) If the TF is original then we can ignore how to get from Josephus writing it in c.100 to Jesus existing God knows when.

5) Therefore, Jesus existed.
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