Proofs That Jesus Existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by gryan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:16 am "The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus is a conference and larger project ...

The organisers argue that the quest for the historical Jesus has stagnated in the twenty-first century. Nevertheless, the Next Quest project accepts two recent developments in the field. It accepts that the criteria of authenticity and other attempts to get "behind" the Gospel texts have been largely unsuccessful. It accepts that celebrated debates about Jesus's Jewishness have largely updated older anti-Jewish tendencies in historical Jesus scholarship. Building on these developments, the Next Quest is a statement about where historical Jesus studies can go from here, and essentially an answer to the question, "What's next?"
...
The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus will foundationally be a curious quest, a broader quest, a wide-open quest, and one that explicitly links Jesus studies to innovative approaches to Christian origins and the Humanities generally—and brings it up-to-date as a subfield within them both.
Argument from the question about the next proof

1. I accept that the criteria of authenticity is not a proof.
2. I accept that other attempts to get behind the Gospel-Jesus are not proofs.
3. I accept that signs of Jesus' Jewishness in the Gospels are not proofs.
4. But I ask: What will be the next proof?
5. I prophesy that the next proof will foundationally be a curious proof, a broader proof, a wide-open proof, and one that explicitly links our longing for a historical Jesus to innovative approaches to whatever you want.
6. Therefore, Jesus existed.
I'm laughing because this is an accurate representation of the promo for this conference!

I have signed up to listen in.
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mlinssen
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by mlinssen »

Same here. Nothing so sobering as watching people speak. I may be surprised, in fact I'm hoping for that to happen

I'm a hopeless romantic sometimes
StephenGoranson
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by StephenGoranson »

1) a-- future-- conference on "...historical Jesus" has been announced
2) no one has yet spoken in it
3) therefore.............
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JoeWallack
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ARGUMENT FROM DEJESUS AD NAZOREAN

Post by JoeWallack »

ARGUMENT FROM DEJESUS AD NAZOREAN

1) They don't take DeJesus in Hell.

2) DeJesus accepted in Sievierodonetsk, The Constitution and The Capital (every 4th year on January 6th).

3) DeJesus, it's everywhere you want him to be.

4) Therefore, Jesus existed.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
Argument from Marcion

1. Even the Arch-Heretic Marcion made mention of Jesus' flesh and bones.

2. Therefore, Jesus existed.
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Sinouhe
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Sinouhe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:41 am .
Argument from Marcion

1. Even the Arch-Heretic Marcion made mention of Jesus' flesh and bones.

2. Therefore, Jesus existed.
The incarnation is not a proof of the existence of Jesus. On the contrary, i never heard about an historical figure who existed before the creation of the world, who was incarnated by emptying himself of his divinity to take the appearance of a man and who then ascended to heaven to await the final judgment. Especially since this concept does not come from a real life story but is entirely shaped by exaggerating and distorting a so-called prophetic text written five or six centuries earlier : Isaiah.

A book that served as a model for all the messianic texts that preceded Christianity and that also gave their vision of the Messiah based on this book.

So in my opinion, the incarnation is an argument that supports the mythicist thesis.
Giuseppe
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Giuseppe »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:25 am
So in my opinion, the incarnation is an argument that supports the mythicist thesis.
even more so since the incarnation is a late belief, producted by the need of making Jesus a veritable creature of the demiurge and in the same time by the need of profiting of a true resurrection of the body in a time of (more presumed than real) persecutions of the Christians.
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Sinouhe
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Sinouhe »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:43 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:25 am
So in my opinion, the incarnation is an argument that supports the mythicist thesis.
even more so since the incarnation is a late belief, producted by the need of making Jesus a veritable creature of the demiurge and in the same time by the need of profiting of a true resurrection of the body in a time of (more presumed than real) persecutions of the Christians.
On the contrary, I think it is an early belief that goes back even before Paul since it is present in the hymn to the Philippians.
And this incarnation was a way for Christians to reconcile the pre-existence of the Messiah (which is already mentioned in Isaiah and exaggerated by the author of the parables of Enoch and then by Christians) with the humanity of the Messiah as Isaiah also mentions it.

How to reconcile 2 apparently contradictory concepts ? : pre-existence and humanity ?

With the incarnation.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:25 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:41 am .
Argument from Marcion

1. Even the Arch-Heretic Marcion made mention of Jesus' flesh and bones.

2. Therefore, Jesus existed.
The incarnation is not a proof of the existence of Jesus. On the contrary, ...
Hi Sinouhe, this is a satirical thread. The goal is to present an argument that at first glance might look like "evidence", but upon closer inspection, it isn't.

But thanks for your rebuttal. Goal achieved :mrgreen:
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Sinouhe
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed

Post by Sinouhe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:28 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:25 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:41 am .
Argument from Marcion

1. Even the Arch-Heretic Marcion made mention of Jesus' flesh and bones.

2. Therefore, Jesus existed.
The incarnation is not a proof of the existence of Jesus. On the contrary, ...
Hi Sinouhe, this is a satirical thread. The goal is to present an argument that at first glance might look like "evidence", but upon closer inspection, it isn't.

But thanks for your rebuttal. Goal achieved :mrgreen:
Ahaha my bad… I hadn't bothered to read the 40 pages of the topic (nor the first message) before posting my answer. I stupidly thought you were serious :lol:
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