Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Christ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8624
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Peter Kirby »

Markus Vinzent seems to have a full-throated defense of the priority of a Marcionite gospel over all, which is reviewed by Roth.

I have "liberated" the book review here (avert your eyes, if you wish).
Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels. By M arkus V inzent
Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels. By Markus Vinzent . Pp. xi + 353. (Studia Patristica Supplements, 2.) Leuven : Peeters , 2014. isbn978 90 429 3027 8 . Paper €78.
Dieter T. Roth
J Theol Studies (2015) 66 (2): 800-803.

I n his 2011 monograph, Christ’s Resurrection in Early Christianity and the Making of the New Testament , Markus Vinzent raised the question ‘might it be the case that Marcion neither found, nor used, nor edited the Gospel, but produced it in his Roman classroom?’ (p. 86) and went on to posit that this indeed was the case. Though this hypothesis was only briefly discussed in his 2011 work, in the volume presently under review, Vinzent seeks to further this view in four chapters of widely varying length, ultimately contending that Marcion wrote the very first Gospel and that all four canonical Gospels used Marcion’s Gospel as a source.

In chapter 1, ‘Marcion, his Gospel and the Gospels in the Sources’ (158 pp.), Vinzent provides an overview of his readings of the sources for Marcion and his Gospel, along with a section devoted to the history of research on Marcion’s Gospel. Vinzent’s intention here is to demonstrate that ‘an outright denigration of Marcion as a “heretic” or even “arch-heretic” is anachronistic’ in that ‘not all of the many writings of the second century on Marcion … are hostile to Marcion’ and ‘the writings with clear defamatory intentions are younger ones’ (p. 7). Though helpful observations are made in this chapter, many readings of the sources struck me as idiosyncratic, often debated or debatable, and in some instances simply indefensible, a point to which I return below. Chapter 2 is entitled ‘Dating the Synoptic Gospels – the Status Quaestionis ’ (56 pp.) and contains succinct overviews of the myriad proposals for the dating of the Synoptic Gospels as well a cursory summary and criticism of various proposed solutions to the Synoptic Problem. Here also, I fear that advocates of the particular, criticized solutions will not view their positions as adequately or accurately portrayed. In chapter 3, ‘Re-Dating the Gospels’ (62 pp.) Vinzent argues that the New Testament papyri do not make a dating of the canonical Gospels to the time of Marcion impossible and that ‘the fact that the Gospels are not quoted or referred to in Paul or in other early Christian literature prior to Marcion speaks in favour of a dating of these texts to the time of Marcion’ (p. 224). In addition, in n. 188 of this chapter, Vinzent finally lets the reader know that the novel numbering of Marcion’s Gospel he has been employing is taken from his yet to be published Marcion’s Gospel: A Synoptic Commentary. I did not, however, find any indication of the source for the reconstructed text of Marcion’s Gospel that Vinzent cites (sometimes at great length) in his monograph. Chapter 4, entitled ‘Marcion’s Gospel – An Inspirational New Literary Genre’ (6 pp.), contains Vinzent’s conclusions that ‘Marcion, who created the new literary genre of the “Gospel” and also gave the work this title, had no historical precedent in the combination of Christ’s sayings and narratives’ (p. 277) and that this Gospel was, ‘through combining prefaces of Acts and Luke , put under the name of Luke. Luke was complemented by Mark, Matthew and John ’ (p. 282).

Though Vinzent’s voice and views are important to consider within the contemporary resurgence of interest in Marcion and Marcion’s Gospel, much of the argumentation in this volume is problematic and, at least to my mind, insufficiently nuanced and ultimately unconvincing. Certainly, part of the problem is that Vinzent is undertaking a massive redating and revisioning of all early Christian Gospels in a relatively slender volume. Though he often indicates and bemoans that he is only able to provide overviews of complex issues, it is not the summary nature of many arguments that I find to be most problematic. Rather, it is the inadequate and inaccurate references made to other scholars and to the ancient sources that are of greatest concern. In the interest of space, I will mention only two examples. First, with regard to a modern scholar, Vinzent summarizes the ‘internal evidence’ adduced by John Knox that Marcion’s Gospel is not an edited version of canonical Luke. On pp. 256–8 Vinzent presents one element of this evidence, namely the linguistic arguments, set forth by Knox in his 1939 article ‘On the Vocabulary of Marcion’s Gospel’ and in his 1942 monograph Marcion and the New Testament. Though Vinzent claims that Knox ‘came up with results that not even his critics have been able to dispute’ (p. 256), it is unfortunate that Vinzent does not mention that though Knox continued to support the position of the priority of Marcion’s Gospel, Knox himself disputed his own arguments based on style and vocabulary in his 1987 contribution to the Festschrift for William R. Farmer, Jesus, the Gospels, and the Church , entitled ‘Marcion’s Gospel and the Synoptic Problem’. In n. 6 of that essay, Knox stated that he now thinks that he ‘should not have attempted to build any positive argument for Marcion’s priority on so meager and uncertain a basis as the recoverable text of his [Marcion’s] Gospel provides (that is in its detail)’. In essence, Knox came to recognize that until the text of Marcion’s Gospel is more critically established, arguments based on style and vocabulary, including the ones he himself set forth, are of minimal usefulness and, as he reiterated at the conclusion of the above-mentioned note, ‘not decisive “either for or against the traditional view”’. Second, with regard to an ancient source, one of Vinzent’s contentions regarding Tertullian’s views of Marcion is that ‘Consistently, discussing Paul’s concepts of the “new covenant” and of “newness”, Tertullian asserts that with his Gospel Marcion introduced a nova forma sermonis , a literary innovation, that there is in Christ a novel style of discourse, when he sets forth similitudes, when he answers questions’ (p. 92). In support of this point, Vinzent offers a citation from Marc. 4.11.12, which is the only place in Adversus Marcionem where there is a reference to a nova forma sermonis. His quotation of Tertullian in a footnote reads: forma sermonis in Christo nova, cum similitudines obicit, cum quaestiones refutat (p. 92, n. 352). The glaring problem, however, is that this citation is taken completely out of context and used by Vinzent to say precisely the opposite of what Tertullian actually states. Following comments that though the Gospel is different from the Law it is nevertheless in no way opposed to the Law, Tertullian goes on to say Nec forma sermonis in Christo nova. Cum similitudines obicit, cum quaestiones refutat, de septuagesimo venit psalmo: Aperiam, inquit, in parabolam os meum, id est similitudinem; eloquar problemata, id est edisseram quaestiones. Such troubling use of the statements of others, and unfortunately these are not the only examples in this volume, are a significant impediment to this monograph’s intention of advancing contemporary scholarship and discussion on Marcion’s Gospel and the Synoptic Gospels.

In sum, in this volume Vinzent provides the reader with a helpful collection of many of the relevant ancient and modern sources for scholarship on Marcion’s Gospel and the Synoptic Gospels even as his presentation and interpretation of those sources are at times less than satisfactory. For this reason it seems unlikely to me that this attempt to alter fundamentally the scholarly understanding of early Christian Gospels will find a receptive audience.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:Markus Vinzent seems to have a full-throated defense of the priority of a Marcionite gospel over all, which is reviewed by Roth.

I have "liberated" the book review here (avert your eyes, if you wish).
.... [O]ne of Vinzent’s contentions regarding Tertullian’s views of Marcion is that ‘Consistently, discussing Paul’s concepts of the “new covenant” and of “newness”, Tertullian asserts that with his Gospel Marcion introduced a nova forma sermonis , a literary innovation, that there is in Christ a novel style of discourse, when he sets forth similitudes, when he answers questions’ (p. 92). In support of this point, Vinzent offers a citation from Marc. 4.11.12, which is the only place in Adversus Marcionem where there is a reference to a nova forma sermonis. His quotation of Tertullian in a footnote reads: forma sermonis in Christo nova, cum similitudines obicit, cum quaestiones refutat (p. 92, n. 352). The glaring problem, however, is that this citation is taken completely out of context and used by Vinzent to say precisely the opposite of what Tertullian actually states. Following comments that though the Gospel is different from the Law it is nevertheless in no way opposed to the Law, Tertullian goes on to say Nec forma sermonis in Christo nova. Cum similitudines obicit, cum quaestiones refutat, de septuagesimo venit psalmo: Aperiam, inquit, in parabolam os meum, id est similitudinem; eloquar problemata, id est edisseram quaestiones. Such troubling use of the statements of others, and unfortunately these are not the only examples in this volume, are a significant impediment to this monograph’s intention of advancing contemporary scholarship and discussion on Marcion’s Gospel and the Synoptic Gospels.
Wow. That is not great.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8892
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
That Roth [PhD] thesis is what preceded his book, The Text of Marcion’s Gospel, which is what I used in the main for my reconstruction of Marcion's gospel: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765. As you say, he takes no position on Marcionite priority vis-à-vis Mark.
This raises the fundamental issue about accurate reconstruction of Marcion's Gospel. I read a fair bit of Roth's PhD thesis & got the impression Roth has been very measured and considered but thorough in his reconstruction. I don't know to what extent Beduhn amd Vinzent consulted it, or if Roth has changed any aspects of his reconstruction between the publication of his thesis in 2009 and the 2015 publication of The Text of Marcion’s Gospel.
Ben C. Smith wrote: I say this as someone who is fairly convinced that the Marcionite gospel is not simply a revision of Luke.
I'm sure you're much better at contemplating that than me. What BeDuhn is reported to have said is interesting -
  • BeDuhn sees Luke as a Marcionite-neutral redaction of the Marcionite Gospel, which perhaps took place prior to Marcion. He says: "...it could even be suggested that Luke is a second edition of Marcion's Gospel by the same author."
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
That Roth [PhD] thesis is what preceded his book, The Text of Marcion’s Gospel, which is what I used in the main for my reconstruction of Marcion's gospel: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765. As you say, he takes no position on Marcionite priority vis-à-vis Mark.
This raises the fundamental issue about accurate reconstruction of Marcion's Gospel.
Well, yes. Definitely.
I read a fair bit of Roth's PhD thesis & got the impression Roth has been very measured and considered but thorough in his reconstruction.
I agree with this appraisal. Roth strikes me as extremely careful, both in his thesis and in his book.
I don't know to what extent Beduhn and Vinzent consulted it, or if Roth has changed any aspects of his reconstruction between the publication of his thesis in 2009 and the 2015 publication of The Text of Marcion’s Gospel.
Well, BeDuhn I can speak for to some extent, based simply on his own work. He published in 2013, before Roth's book but well after Roth's thesis. In a footnote, BeDuhn claims not to have used Roth's thesis, and the reason he gives is that it would have been inappropriate to have appropriated it before the final results (the book) were out. But I can think of another reason: it seems to me to be a good idea for both scholars to go about their work independently so as to permit as much insight as possible to be shed upon the issue.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8892
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
... In a footnote, BeDuhn claims not to have used Roth's thesis, and the reason he gives is that it would have been inappropriate to have appropriated it before the final results (the book) were out. But I can think of another reason: it seems to me to be a good idea for both scholars to go about their work independently so as to permit as much insight as possible to be shed upon the issue.
That's 'interesting'. I would have thought the appropriate thing for BeDuhn to have done would been to reconstruct Marcion's Gospel independently, then, when he was happy with his efforts, to check it against what else was then available.

Whether he then attempted to relate his reconstruction to the synoptic gospels, or a subsequent modification of it based on others' then available reconstructions, such as Roth's, would seem to be another matter.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8892
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by MrMacSon »

.
Anyway, it looks like the scholars, including those mentioned here, have a reasonable amount of material to work with.
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2160
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by spin »

Here's Klinghardt's diagram from his contribution to "Marcion’s Gospel and the New Testament: Catalyst or Consequence?" in New Test. Stud. (2017), 63, 320
Attachments
Klinghardt.jpg
Klinghardt.jpg (176.61 KiB) Viewed 6116 times
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8624
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Peter Kirby »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Wow. That is not great.
This is another review: http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/v20/TC-20 ... -Himes.pdf (gives a wider view of the argument)

And a slightly different Roth take: https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2015 ... n-marcion/
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2160
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

BeDuhn of the Synoptic problem in light of Marcion's gospel

Post by spin »

One on the problems that the Farrer hypothesis brought back from the dead in recent decades by Goulder and others is that a simple explanation for what are called "minor agreements" is the observed fact of scribal cross-pollination, ie scribes carry ideas from one gospel to another due to familiarity of the context and forgetting they are copying another gospel.

BeDuhn uses the notion of such scribal manifestations ably when dealing with the Two-Source hypothesis and produces what seems to me a coherent picture of both the place of Marcion's gospel and the development of the synoptic tradition:

The seriousness of the problem depends upon whether the ‘Minor Agreements’ are an element of composition that existed in the original autograph of Luke (for some reason, it is always Luke, not Matthew), or were introduced subsequently as a textual corruption. The evidence of Marcion’s Gospel aligns with the latter idea, that they were introduced in the process of transmission of the gospel text, since Marcion’s Gospel contains between a half and two thirds fewer ‘Minor Agreements’ with Matthew than the current critical text of Luke does (a critical text that, due to axioms of text criticism, gives an absolute minimum of ‘Minor Agreements’ in Luke). In other words, the phenomenon of ‘Minor Agreements’ is reduced in Marcion’s Gospel to such a small factor that one must doubt that it was a feature of the original text at all, and conclude that Luke has more of them due to the greater exposure to the text of Matthew in the process of its transmission – either from a longer period of exposure or from transmission in closer association with Matthew, or both. In the case of Marcion’s Gospel, of course, exposure to the text of Matthew must have occurred before the gospel text reached Marcion and was sequestered within the Marcionite community, at which time exposure to Matthew in its transmission would have ceased. Nonetheless, two centuries of critical scholarship had to contend with the ‘Minor Agreements’ as if they were compositional elements that needed to be solved in the construction of our models of gospel interrelationships. Only now with the evidence of Marcion’s Gospel can this whole problem be set aside. From BeDuhn's contribution to "Marcion’s Gospel and the New Testament: Catalyst or Consequence?" in New Test. Stud. (2017), 63, 325

Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Ulan »

Is there any concise text available with an explanation why Klinghardt or Trobisch prefer gMark to be a redaction of Marcion's gospel? Is it just the reason that it would otherwise disturb the flow from a purely divine being to a fully human son of God?
Post Reply