Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Christ?

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davidbrainerd
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by davidbrainerd »

Bertie wrote:
And this, of course, is where the early/centrally important Marcion theory goes to die, because the textual case for Markan priority is overwhelming.
Lol. The whole textual case is two silly maxims:

(1) "Mark is shortest, so has to be first."

(2) "each gospel was written all at once, as one piece, not hodge-podged together over time."

If you understand Matthew as tweaked over time to incorporate bits of Luke and Luke tweaked over time to incorporate bits of Matthew, and Mark as a bare-bones abridgement of both, you'll arrive closer to the truth than you will by following those two absurd maxims. #2 in particular is deeply problematic and is sheer denial of reality.
Bertie
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Bertie »

Peter Kirby wrote:
Bertie wrote:And this, of course, is where the early/centrally important Marcion theory goes to die, because the textual case for Markan priority is overwhelming.
Provide an outline of this 'textual case' for the priority of Mark to the 'Marcion gospel' (or 'TED gospel' for Huller - the one evident from Tertullian's Dialogue, Epiphanius' Panarion, and the other sources).
The reconstructions vary so little from canonical Luke that most of the standard arguments for Markan Priority will still apply.
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Secret Alias »

TED gospel' for Huller


I like the name TED (it's better than mine) but what does the D stand for?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote:
TED gospel' for Huller


I like the name TED (it's better than mine) but what does the D stand for?
De Recta in Deum Fide.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Peter Kirby »

Bertie wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
Bertie wrote:And this, of course, is where the early/centrally important Marcion theory goes to die, because the textual case for Markan priority is overwhelming.
Provide an outline of this 'textual case' for the priority of Mark to the 'Marcion gospel' (or 'TED gospel' for Huller - the one evident from Tertullian's Dialogue, Epiphanius' Panarion, and the other sources).
The reconstructions vary so little from canonical Luke that most of the standard arguments for Markan Priority will still apply.
That's an interesting point. I would be curious to see anyone develop it, e.g., comparing the existing arguments for Markan priority to Luke and seeing how well they fare using Roth or DeBuhn.

I also wonder what the odd couple of scholars (Vinzent, Klinghardt) have to say here.
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Bertie wrote:The reconstructions vary so little from canonical Luke that most of the standard arguments for Markan Priority will still apply.

:-x That can 't be true. :evil: Impossible. :twisted: Senseless claim. :-x






;) :mrgreen: :D
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:
Bertie wrote:The reconstructions vary so little from canonical Luke that most of the standard arguments for Markan Priority will still apply.
That's an interesting point. I would be curious to see anyone develop it, e.g., comparing the existing arguments for Markan priority to Luke and seeing how well they fare using Roth or DeBuhn.

I also wonder what the odd couple of scholars (Vinzent, Klinghardt) have to say here.
It is probably a minor thing, but one possible argument that struck me for Marcan priority vis-à-vis Marcion is the same argument often made for Marcionite priority vis-à-vis Luke. Basically, the Nazareth episode in canonical Luke implies that Jesus has already performed miracles in Capernaum, but Jesus has not even been to Capernaum in canonical Luke by that point. The Marcionite gospel, however, places the exorcism in the Capernaum synagogue before the Nazareth episode, thus offering at least one miracle in Capernaum (the mention of miracles performed there is unattested, however); yet the word is plural, so the tension, while somewhat relieved, is not completely absolved. But Mark postpones the Nazareth episode until several miracles have been performed in Capernaum (while simultaneously, however, lacking any mention of miracles performed there!).

This evidence can be seen as reflecting Marcan priority, followed by the insertion of the mention of miracles into the pericope while it remains in its Marcan order (this is an intermediate stage of the gospel development, not directly evidenced), followed by Marcion moving the pericope forward, followed finally by Luke moving it forward again.

I am pretty convinced that canonical Luke displays an editing issue here, but I am less sure that the above sequence is the only solution.
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Bertie
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Bertie »

Perhaps talking about Markan Priority is conceding too much: for something like Tertullian's Marcion to have priority over the synoptics, it is not enough that Markan Priority isn't true, but that something kinda like Lukan Priority is. Lukan Priority is the least popular solution to the Synoptic Problem (or close to it), and there's probably good reason for that.
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by spin »

Ulan wrote:Is there any concise text available with an explanation why Klinghardt or Trobisch prefer gMark to be a redaction of Marcion's gospel? Is it just the reason that it would otherwise disturb the flow from a purely divine being to a fully human son of God?
If you look at the diagram in this post you'll see that Klinghardt does not presently prefer gMark, but the gospel Tertullian attributes to the work of Marcion.
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Ulan
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Re: Did the Gospel-writers anthropomorphize Marcion's J-Chri

Post by Ulan »

spin wrote:
Ulan wrote:Is there any concise text available with an explanation why Klinghardt or Trobisch prefer gMark to be a redaction of Marcion's gospel? Is it just the reason that it would otherwise disturb the flow from a purely divine being to a fully human son of God?
If you look at the diagram in this post you'll see that Klinghardt does not presently prefer gMark, but the gospel Tertullian attributes to the work of Marcion.
That's what I said? I'm just looking for their reasoning, which I haven't been able to find yet. I have seen explanations for why Marcion's text is supposed to be earlier than gMatthew or canonical Luke, but I haven't seen the detailed reasoning why it's earlier than gMark. Maybe, I should just (physically) go to the library.

Edit: Meh, the first of Klinghardt's volumes seems to be constantly on loan.
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