Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by Secret Alias »

"But Polycarp (Καὶ Πολύκαρπος) ..."

It should be noted that we see in Patristic writings that καὶ is the most obvious citation marker. As Steinfield notes https://www.academia.edu/17003893/Preli ... _Galatians
The most common way citations of Galatians are identified in Origen’s works is through the use of either introductory or concluding markers. The markers typically indicate author (i.e. ‘Paul’, ‘the apostle’, ‘his letter’) or the audience (‘To the Galatians’). Some citations have both of these elements while others only have one. While markers can introduce a single citation, they often appear before citation chains. The following examples are introductory markers.5

Galatians 1:3–4 [Ps.Frag 134:12:100]
ὡς καὶ γράφων τοῖς Γαλάταις ὁ Παῦλος εἰπὼν γάρ …
‘and as written to the Galatians, for Paul said …’

Galatians 1:4 [Eph.Com 9:177]
Καὶ ἐν τῆ πρὸς Γαλάτας …
‘and in ‘To the Galatians’’

Galatians 1:8 [Ps.Frag 68:14:9]
ἢ διδάξη ἡμᾶς παρ᾽ ὃ ὁ Παῦλος ἐδίδαξεν …
‘the teaching according to that which Paul taught you’

Galatians 1:15–16 [Basil.Phil A 25:1:3]
καὶ ἐν τῇ πρὸς Γαλάτας ὁ ἀπόστολος …
‘and in ‘To the Galatians’ the apostle …’

Galatians 1:19 [Matt.Com B 10:17:29]
ὃν λέγει Παῦλος ἰδεῖν ἐν τῇ πρὸς Γαλάτας ἐπιστολῇ εἰπών …
‘which Paul said he had seen in his letter ‘To the Galatians’, saying …’

Galatians 2:9 [Ps.Sel 12:1533:52]
… φησὶν ὁ Ἀπόστολος …
‘the apostle said …’

Galatians 2:20 [1Cor.Com 30:5]
διὸ λέγει ὁ Παῦλος…
‘therefore Paul said …’

Galatians 3:1 [Ps.Frag 9:6:17]
Καὶ Γαλάταις δὲ Παῦλος ἐπετίμα …
‘But Paul also admonished the Galatians …’

Galatians 4:16 [Ps.Sel 12:1129:53]
ὡς ὁ Ἀπόστολός φησιν …
‘as the Apostle said …’

Galatians 4:21 [Princ 4:2:6:28]
ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ ἐν τῇ πρὸς Γαλάτας ἐπιστολῇ …
‘but indeed also in the epistle ‘To the Galatians’ …’

Galatians 4:26 [Matt.Com C 16:15:25]
ἐν δὲ τῇ πρὸς Γαλάτας …
‘but in ‘To the Galatians’ …’

Galatians 5:19 [Eph.Com 25:69]
καὶ λέγειν …
‘and he said …’

Galatians 6:14 [Matt.Com C 13:21:28]
…ἀλλὰ λεγέτω κατὰ Παῦλον…
‘but say, according to Paul …’
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by Secret Alias »

Ebion is created as an epynonimous founder to explain the group name Ebionim on the basis of a founder's name rather than an attribute of the group, to prevent any claim that they are "the poor" in Galatians 2. The name Marcion simply cannot be created in this way. Furthermore, Ebionim was a self designation of the group, so it has to be maligned somehow; whereas Marcionites its itself a maligning group designation created by the Catholics on the basis of asserting Marcion as the founder of the group, whereas the adherents of the same probably prefered to merely be called Chrestians.
The claim that Marcion lived in Rome under Anicetus and Antoninus is a corruption of Hegesippus's firsthand encounter of a heretic named Marcellina while he (purportedly) visited Rome. This is the germ to the famous 'Do you recognize me' story. If you discount the fact that Polycarp ever saw Marcion face to face in Rome what more reliable biographical information do we have than that first hand encounter? When you restore Marcion was in Rome under Anicetus to Marcellina was in Rome under Anicetus met by Hegesippus (or Joseph) rather than Polycarp what is really left to a historical Marcion? It is easy to see how 'Polycarp' (fruitful/many fruit) developed as a poetic nickname for someone named Joseph.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Thu May 11, 2017 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by davidbrainerd »

Secret Alias wrote:"But Polycarp (Καὶ Πολύκαρπος) ..."

It should be noted that we see in Patristic writings that καὶ is the most obvious citation marker. As Steinfield notes https://www.academia.edu/17003893/Preli ... _Galatians
Only if there is a word translating to "said/says" in there.

"And Galatians says..." not just "and Galatians..."
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by Secret Alias »

Not getting your point. Καὶ at the start of a sentence is a signal of a citation.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by davidbrainerd »

Secret Alias wrote:Not getting your point. Καὶ at the start of a sentence is a signal of a citation.
Show us the sentence about Polycarp you are trying to turn into a citation of Polycarp.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by Secret Alias »

A better example from Irenaeus not Origen:

Irenaeus says quite clearly that Papias is an additional witness (καὶ Παπίας: “Papias also”) to the saying he has just quoted from the elders.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by davidbrainerd »

Secret Alias wrote:A better example from Irenaeus not Origen:

Irenaeus says quite clearly that Papias is an additional witness (καὶ Παπίας: “Papias also”) to the saying he has just quoted from the elders.
So what? You have no point in any of this. Just keyboard diarhea.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by Secret Alias »

as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say:
The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true(1) twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster,(2) another shall cry out, "I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me." In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees,(3) and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.
And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias (Ταῦτα δὲ καὶ Παπίας), the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (suntetagmena) by him
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
davidbrainerd
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by davidbrainerd »

davidbrainerd wrote:
Secret Alias wrote:Not getting your point. Καὶ at the start of a sentence is a signal of a citation.
Show us the sentence about Polycarp you are trying to turn into a citation of Polycarp.
So is the following the point you're trying to but are incapable of making?

You think the bolded statement here
There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within. And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan. Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth;
Should instead be
And Polycarp [says]: [John] himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan.
?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Tertullian said Marcion later professed repentance

Post by Secret Alias »

Show us the sentence about Polycarp you are trying to turn into a citation of Polycarp.
Irenaeus acknowledging that he has just cited Polycarp
Expanded section of Hegesippus beyond Anicetus
Corrupted Hegesippus ending with Anicetus - The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus.
Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
But Polycarp (Καὶ Πολύκαρπος) also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Post Reply