Jesus the angel.

[MrMacSon]

I am looking for examples of ancient texts which actually or potentially identify Jesus (either by name or as "the son of God" or some other designation) as an angel. ... What other texts depict Jesus as an angel? I think the Shepherd of Hermas must, but I have to admit that I find the various angelic figures very confusing in that book, so I cannot be sure without dedicating some very specific study time to it (this is going to happen sometime, but not today).

That is one of the peculiarities of the Shepherd, there isn't much distinctly Christian content in it. I think that either the name/title Jesus/Christ occurs only once in it entirety. That there is a series of angelic figures, who, IIRC, always appear in human form (although these seem to shape shift a lot - the same figure shows up in different forms at different points), is for sure. But they always dish out practical advice, not apocalyptic predictions. I do not recall any salvation figures being brought up at all.

I wonder if The Shepherd of Hermas was co-opted from a mystery/pagan religion

[Ben C. Smith]

I am looking for examples of ancient texts which actually or potentially identify Jesus (either by name or as "the son of God" or some other designation) as an angel. ... What other texts depict Jesus as an angel? I think the Shepherd of Hermas must, but I have to admit that I find the various angelic figures very confusing in that book, so I cannot be sure without dedicating some very specific study time to it (this is going to happen sometime, but not today).

That is one of the peculiarities of the Shepherd, there isn't much distinctly Christian content in it. I think that either the name/title Jesus/Christ occurs only once in it entirety. That there is a series of angelic figures, who, IIRC, always appear in human form (although these seem to shape shift a lot - the same figure shows up in different forms at different points), is for sure. But they always dish out practical advice, not apocalyptic predictions. I do not recall any salvation figures being brought up at all.

I am not certain that the terms Jesus or Christ appear at all in the text. But I am open to the son of God being called an angel, too. I know there is a "son of God" figure in the book.

[JoeWallack]

What other texts depict Jesus as an angel?

My Condition

JW:
I would say GMark since it is clearly Separationist. The beginning implies that the spirit Jesus was possessed by was the exact same spirit in the Jewish Bible.


Joseph

The New Porphyry

[Secret Alias]

Theoderet on Psalm 8

And when he appeared in person to Jacob, he replied to his enquiry about his name, "Why do you ask my name? It is awesome."9

Chrysostom Genesis 12-50 - Google Books
https://books.google.com/books?id=cSL_4 ... ed&f=false

Clementine Homilies 18 And Peter said: I shall reply to that which you wish me to speak of,—namely, the passage, 'No one knows the Father but the Son, nor does any one know the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son may wish to reveal Him.' First, then, I am astonished that, while this statement admits of countless interpretations, you should have chosen the very dangerous position of maintaining that the statement is made in reference to the ignorance of the Creator (Demiurge), and all who are under him. For, first, the statement can apply to all the Jews who think that David is the father of Christ, and that Christ himself is his son, and do not know that He is the Son of God. Wherefore it is appropriately said, 'No one knows the Father,' since, instead of God, they affirmed David to be His father; and the additional remark, that no one knows even the Son, is quite correct, since they did not know that He was the Son. The statement also, 'to whomsoever the Son may wish to reveal Him,' is also correct; for He being the Son from the beginning, was alone appointed to give the revelation to those to whom He wishes to give it. And thus the first man (protoplast) Adam must have heard of Him; and Enoch, who pleased God, must have known Him; and Noah, the righteous one, must have become acquainted with Him; and Abraam His friend must have understood Him; and Isaac must have perceived Him; and Jacob, who wrestled with Him, must have believed in Him; and the revelation must have been given to all among the people who were worthy.

Justin Dialogue 58
And when all had agreed on these grounds, I continued: "Moreover, I consider it necessary to repeat to you the words which narrate how He who is both Angel and God and Lord, and who appeared as a man to Abraham, and who wrestled in human form with Jacob, was seen by him when he fled from his brother Esau. They are as follows: 'And Jacob went out from the well of the oath, and went toward Charran. And he lighted on a spot, and slept there, for the sun was set; and he gathered of the stones of the place, and put them under his head. And he slept in that place; and he dreamed, and, behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, whose top reached to heaven; and the angels of God ascended and descended upon it. And the Lord stood above it, and He said, I am the Lord, the God of Abraham thy father, and of Isaac; be not afraid: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; and thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and shall be extended to the west, and south, and north, and east: and in thee, and in thy seed, shall all families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, keeping thee in every way wherein thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done all that I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and said, Surely the Lord is in this place, and I knew it not. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. And Jacob rose up in the morning, and took the stone which he had placed under his head, and he set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it; and Jacob called the name of the place The House of God, and the name of the city formerly was Ulammaus.'"

[DCHindley]

I am looking for examples of ancient texts which actually or potentially identify Jesus (either by name or as "the son of God" or some other designation) as an angel. ... What other texts depict Jesus as an angel? I think the Shepherd of Hermas must, but I have to admit that I find the various angelic figures very confusing in that book, so I cannot be sure without dedicating some very specific study time to it (this is going to happen sometime, but not today).

That is one of the peculiarities of the Shepherd, there isn't much distinctly Christian content in it. I think that either the name/title Jesus/Christ occurs only once in it entirety. That there is a series of angelic figures, who, IIRC, always appear in human form (although these seem to shape shift a lot - the same figure shows up in different forms at different points), is for sure. But they always dish out practical advice, not apocalyptic predictions. I do not recall any salvation figures being brought up at all.

I am not certain that the terms Jesus or Christ appear at all in the text. But I am open to the son of God being called an angel, too. I know there is a "son of God" figure in the book.

Yes, I looked at them just a moment ago. There definitely are allusions to NT theology, particularly the gospels. It looks a lot like a very high Christology for the author(s), but perhaps they did not call this "son of god" by the name "Christ". It could represent a form of Philo's cosmology, meaning primarily Platonic.

DCH (written last night but sent this morning)

[John T]

Therefore, let no one who does not shrink from speaking of Christ as an Angel, shrink either from declaring Him also to be God....Novatian.

Christ is at once both Angel and God....Cyprian

Sincerely,

John T

[Ben C. Smith]

Thank you.

[DCHindley]

That is one of the peculiarities of the Shepherd, there isn't much distinctly Christian content in it. I think that either the name/title Jesus/Christ occurs only once in it entirety. That there is a series of angelic figures, who, IIRC, always appear in human form (although these seem to shape shift a lot - the same figure shows up in different forms at different points), is for sure. But they always dish out practical advice, not apocalyptic predictions. I do not recall any salvation figures being brought up at all.

I wonder if The Shepherd of Hermas was co-opted from a mystery/pagan religion

When Ben mentioned that the phrase "son of god" occurs a lot, as opposed to "Jesus" or "Christ," I looked them up to discover a set of vague allusions to NT passages, from the Gospels to the Pauline letters to the General letters to the Revelation. You can tell the referent is what is plainly called Jesus Christ in the NT, only they don't speak directly of Jesus or Christ. The discussion about the Kingdom of God being like a walled city with a single gate, being the Son of God, reminds me of the story about the interrogation of James the Just by the high priests up on the city wall. "What is the Gate of Jesus?" While I still like my theory that this is an allusion to a hypothetical interrogation of the disgraced Idumean general Jacob son of Sosas, this kind of thing adds a new dimension to the possible origin of the story about the death of James the Just. There is a lot of talk about "spirits" in the same vein as the Similitudes of Enoch, although there is nothing here like the salvation figure depicted there.

Still, something about them strikes me oddly. They remind me a bit of the ramblings of the Ignatian letters (whether the longer or shorter Greek versions). There is a sort of "mystery cult" quality to the allusions, but we don't know a whole lot about pagan mystery cults to compare them to. I wonder if these allusions, found only in the section of the Pastor called the Similitudes, has a connection to the kind of cult described by Pliny the younger when he was governor of Pontus-Bithynia, although that latter was apparently openly using the term Christ (with no mention of Jesus).

FWIW, here are the passages I came up with in F. Crombie's translation in ANF volume 2 (beware, it totaled seven pages in MS Word!):

Similitude Five

ch 5: Hear now,” he said, “and understand them.

The field is this world;

and the Lord of the field is He who created, and perfected, and strengthened all things;

[and the son is the Holy Spirit;]

and the slave is the Son of God;

and the vines are this people, whom He Himself planted;

and the stakes are the holy angels of the Lord, who keep His people together;

and the weeds that were plucked out of the vineyard are the iniquities of God’s servants;

and the dishes which He sent Him from His table are the commandments which He gave His people through His Son;

and the friends and fellow-councillors are the holy angels who were first created;

and the Master’s absence from home is the time that remains until His appearing.”

I said to him, “Sir, all these are great, and marvellous, and glorious things. Could I, therefore,” I continued, “understand them? No, nor could any other man, even if exceedingly wise. Moreover,” I added, “explain to me what I am about to ask you.”

“Say what you wish,” he replied.

“Why, sir,” I asked, “is the Son of God in the parable in the form of a slave?”

Ch 6: “Hear,” he answered: “the Son of God is not in the form of a slave, but in great power and might.”

“How so, sir?” I said; “I do not understand.”

“Because,” he answered, “God planted the vineyard, that is to say, He created the people, and gave them to His Son; and the Son appointed His angels over them to keep them;

and He Himself purged away their sins, having suffered many trials and undergone many labours,

for no one is able to dig without labour and toil.

He Himself, then, having purged away the sins of the people, showed them the paths of life by giving them the law which He received from His Father.

[You see,” he said, “that He is the Lord of the people, having received all authority from His Father.]

And why the Lord took His Son as councillor, and the glorious angels, regarding the heirship of the slave, listen.

The holy, pre-existent Spirit, that created every creature, God made to dwell in flesh, which He chose.

This flesh, accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking religiously and chastely, in no respect defiling the Spirit;

and accordingly, after living excellently and purely, and after labouring and co-operating with the Spirit, and having in everything acted vigorously and courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He assumed it as a partner with it.

For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him, because it was not defiled on the earth while having the Holy Spirit.

He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His Son and the glorious angels, in order that this flesh, which had been subject to the body without a fault, might have some place of tabernacle, and that it might not appear that the reward [of its servitude had been lost],

for the flesh that has been found without spot or defilement, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, [will receive a reward].

You have now the explanation of this parable also.”

Similitude Eighth,

ch 3: “Listen,” he said: “This great tree that casts its shadow over plains, and mountains, and all the earth, is the law of God that was given to the whole world; and this law is the Son of God, proclaimed to the ends of the earth;

and the people who are under its shadow are they who have heard the proclamation, and have believed upon Him.

And the great and glorious angel Michael is he who has authority over this people, and governs them;

for this is he who gave them the law into the hearts of believers:

he accordingly superintends them to whom he gave it, to see if they have kept the same.

Similitude Ninth

ch 1: After I had written down the commandments and similitudes of the Shepherd, the angel of repentance, he came to me and said,

“I wish to explain to you what the Holy Spirit that spake with you in the form of the Church showed you, for that Spirit is the Son of God.

For, as you were somewhat weak in the flesh, it was not explained to you by the angel.

When, however, you were strengthened by the Spirit, and your strength was increased, so that you were able to see the angel also, then accordingly was the building of the tower shown you by the Church.

In a noble and solemn manner did you see everything as if shown you by a virgin;

but now you see [them] through the same Spirit as if shown by an angel.

ch 12: “First of all, sir,” I said, “explain this to me: What is the meaning of the rock and the gate?”

“This rock,” he answered, “and this gate are the Son of God.”

“How, sir?” I said; “the rock is old, and the gate is new.”

“Listen,” he said, “and understand, O ignorant man.

The Son of God is older than all His creatures, so that He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation: for this reason is He old.”

“And why is the gate new, sir?” I said.

“Because,” he answered, “He became manifest in the last days of the dispensation: for this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God. You saw,” he said, “that those stones which came in through the gate were used for the building of the tower, and that those which did not come, were again thrown back to their own place?”

“I saw, sir,” I replied.

“In like manner,” he continued, “no one shall enter into the kingdom of God unless he receive His holy name.

For if you desire to enter into a city, and that city is surrounded by a wall, and has but one gate, can you enter into that city save through the gate which it has?”

“Why, how can it be otherwise, sir?” I said.

“If, then, you cannot enter into the city except through its gate, so, in like manner, a man cannot otherwise enter into the kingdom of God than by the name of His beloved Son.

You saw,” he added, “the multitude who were building the tower?”

“I saw them, sir,” I said.

“Those,” he said, “are all glorious angels, and by them accordingly is the Lord surrounded.

And the gate is the Son of God.

This is the one entrance to the Lord.

In no other way, then, shall any one enter in to Him except through His Son.

You saw,” he continued, “the six men, and the tall and glorious man in the midst of them, who walked round the tower, and rejected the stones from the building?”

“I saw him, sir,” I answered.

“The glorious man,” he said, “is the Son of God, and those six glorious angels are those who support Him on the right hand and on the left.

None of these glorious angels,” he continued, “will enter in unto God apart from Him.

Whosoever does not receive His name, shall not enter into the kingdom of God.”

ch 13: “And the tower,” I asked, “what does it mean?”

“This tower,” he replied, “is the Church.”

“And these virgins, who are they?”

“They are holy spirits, and men cannot otherwise be found in the kingdom of God unless these have put their clothing upon them:

for if you receive the name only, and do not receive from them the clothing, they are of no advantage to you.

For these virgins are the powers of the Son of God.

If you bear His name but possess not His power, it will be in vain that you bear His name.

Those stones,” he continued, “which you saw rejected bore His name, but did not put on the clothing of the virgins.”

“Of what nature is their clothing, sir?” I asked.

“Their very names,” he said, “are their clothing.

Every one who bears the name of the Son of God, ought to bear the names also of these; for the Son Himself bears the names of these virgins.

As many stones,” he continued, “as you saw [come into the building of the tower through the hands] of these virgins, and remaining, have been clothed with their strength.

For this reason you see that the tower became of one stone with the rock.

So also they who have believed on the Lord through His Son, and are clothed with these spirits, shall become one spirit, one body, and the colour of their garments shall be one.

And the dwelling of such as bear the names of the virgins is in the tower.”

ch 14: “Listen,” he said: “the name of the Son of God is great, and cannot be contained, and supports the whole world.

If, then, the whole creation is supported by the Son of God, what think ye of those who are called by Him, and bear the name of the Son of God, and walk in His commandments?

do you see what kind of persons He supports? Those who bear His name with their whole heart.

He Himself, accordingly, became a foundation to them, and supports them with joy, because they are not ashamed to bear His name.”

ch 15: “Explain to me, sir,” I said, “the names of these virgins, and of those women who were clothed in black raiment.”

“Hear,” he said, “the names of the stronger virgins who stood at the corners.
• The first is Faith,
• the second Continence,
• the third Power,
• the fourth Patience.

And the others standing in the midst of these have the following names:
• Simplicity,
• Innocence,
• Purity,
• Cheerfulness,
• Truth,
• Understanding,
• Harmony,
• Love.

He who bears these names and that of the Son of God will be able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Hear, also,” he continued, “the names of the women who had the black garments;

and of these four are stronger than the rest.
• The first is Unbelief,
• the second: Incontinence,
• the third Disobedience,
• the fourth Deceit.

And their followers are called
• Sorrow,
• Wickedness,
• Wantonness,
• Anger,
• Falsehood,
• Folly,
• Backbiting,
• Hatred.

The servant of God who bears these names shall see, indeed, the kingdom of God, but shall not enter into it.”

“And the stones, sir,” I said, “which were taken out of the pit and fitted into the building: what are they?”

• “The first,” he said, “the ten, viz., that were placed as a foundation, are the first generation,
• and the twenty-five the second generation, of righteous men;
• and the thirty-five are the prophets of God and His ministers;
• and the forty are the apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God.”

ch 16: “They were obliged,” he answered, “to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive;

for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God.

Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God.

For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead;

but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life.

The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.

And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.”

“Why, sir,” I asked, “did the forty stones also ascend with them out of the pit, having already received the seal?”

“Because,” he said, “these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after falling asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached it not only to those who were asleep, but themselves also gave them the seal of the preaching.

Accordingly they descended with them into the water, and again ascended.

[But these descended alive and rose up again alive; whereas they who had previously fallen asleep descended dead, but rose up again alive.]

By these, then, were they quickened and made to know the name of the Son of God.

For this reason also did they ascend with them, and were fitted along with them into the building of the tower, and, untouched by the chisel, were built in along with them.

For they slept in righteousness and in great purity, but only they had not this seal. You have accordingly the explanation of these also.”

ch 17 “Listen,” he said: “these mountains are the twelve tribes, which inhabit the whole world.

The Son of God, accordingly, was preached unto them by the apostles.”

“Because,” he said, “all the nations that dwell under heaven were called by hearing and believing upon the name of the Son of God.

Having, therefore, received the seal, they had one understanding and one mind; and their faith became one, and their love one, and with the name they bore also the spirits of the virgins.

ch 18 In like manner also shall it be with the Church of God, after it has been purified, and has rejected the wicked, and the hypocrites, and the blasphemers, and the waverers, and those who commit wickedness of different kinds.

After these have been cast away, the Church of God shall be one body, of one mind, of one understanding, of one faith, of one love.

And then the Son of God will be exceeding glad, and shall rejoice over them, because He has received His people pure.”

ch 24: for the Lord has made trial of you, and inscribed you in the number of us, and the whole of your seed will dwell with the Son of God; for ye have received of His Spirit.”

ch 28: “And from the eleventh mountain, where were trees full of fruits, adorned with fruits of various kinds, they who believed were the following:

they who suffered for the name of the Son of God, and who also suffered cheerfully with their whole heart, and laid down their lives.”

“Why, then, sir,” I said, “do all these trees bear fruit, and some of them fairer than the rest?”

“Listen,” he said: “all who once suffered for the name of the Lord are honourable before God; and of all these the sins were remitted, because they suffered for the name of the Son of God.

ch 31: Moreover, I say to you all, who have received the seal of the Son of God, be clothed with simplicity, and be not mindful of offences, nor remain in wickedness.

As Ben knows, "one cannot dig without much toil."

DCH

Edit: 9:49pm ESDST (-5 hr) The good Virgins seem a little like Gnostic Aeons to me ... except that the good and bad ones are mirrors of one another. Ahah! A chiastic structure,. So it must be true and we can all go home now. Now that I have calmed down, I can't think of any Gnostic systems where there are "bad" Aeons by nature (not fallen ones subject to repentance like Sophia), say like Zoroastrian dualism that many postulate fueled Gnostic thought. Damn reality ...

[Ben C. Smith]

When Ben mentioned that the phrase "son of god" occurs a lot, as opposed to "Jesus" or "Christ," I looked them up to discover a set of vague allusions to NT passages, from the Gospels to the Pauline letters to the General letters to the Revelation. You can tell the referent is what is plainly called Jesus Christ in the NT, only they don't speak directly of Jesus or Christ. The discussion about the Kingdom of God being like a walled city with a single gate, being the Son of God, reminds me of the story about the interrogation of James the Just by the high priests up on the city wall. "What is the Gate of Jesus?" While I still like my theory that this is an allusion to a hypothetical interrogation of the disgraced Idumean general Jacob son of Sosas, this kind of thing adds a new dimension to the possible origin of the story about the death of James the Just.

Still, something about them strikes me oddly.

It is my abiding suspicion that a lot of early Christianity remains hidden from us to no small extent. A lot of texts, including the Shepherd of Hermas, do not fit very neatly into the framework we tend to work with. A lot of iconography (from the catacombs, for example) resembles stories from the gospels, but with interesting, persistent twists (most often seven figures seated at a eucharistic feast, not twelve plus Jesus). The inscription of Abercius is full of symbolism similar to what we find in the New Testament (the shepherd imagery), yet also quite different (fish caught by a spotless virgin). I think there is a lot of Christianity not fully represented by the stream of church fathers we find fighting off heresies, from Justin through Irenaeus and Tertullian to Eusebius and Epiphanius and the like.

I noticed a few days ago a passage in the Shepherd which you copied and pasted above, the one where the explanation is given that the son of God is not in the guise of a servant (but is rather represented in great power and lordship), not long after expressly explaining the parable as meaning that the son of God is the servant. This feels to me like a direct reaction to that stage of affairs which I described as the "mythical Jesus Christ" in my other thread, in which the son of God is seen as a slave or servant. This explanation of the parable would be an apologetic way of granting the son of God more dignity than that of a slave (just as the crucifixion, too, eventually has to be given the apologetic treatment). My OP was already long enough, so I did not include this, but there may be much on offer in the Shepherd.

[Ben C. Smith]

As Ben knows, "one cannot dig without much toil."

True.