List of possible stuntmen for the Jesus of Mark

[Giuseppe]

Finally, it has been suggested that various first century preacher/Zealots and would-be Messiah figures who agitated for revolutionary or apocalyptic change, and were usually dispatched by the military authorities (perhaps one was even executed by Pilate!), provided a partial model for the creation of Mark’s Jesus figure, or perhaps even that of Q at some stage. But this is a far cry from saying that the Gospel Jesus represents an historical figure in any meaningful fashion, or that thereby we can say that "there was an historical Jesus".

(Earl Doherty)



I would like a list of all the possible stuntmen found in Josephus and available to ''Mark'' to invent his Jesus.

Surely the more famous examples are, in order of importance:

1) Jesus ben Ananias (for the judicial process before Pilate and the Temple episode)

2) Jesus ben Saphat (for Jesus being leader of a group of poor Galilean fishers and for Jesus being betrayed by Judas)

3) Judas the Galilean (for Judas Iskariot)

4) Menahem (for the triumphal entry of Jesus in Jerusalem followed by a tragic exit)

5) the Egyptian Prophet (for the arrest in Getsemani followed by the release of Jesus Barabbas)

6) the three crucified saved by Josephus (for the Joseph of Arimathea episode)

7) Theudas (for the Jesus's imitation of Elijah in the wilderness)

8) the Samaritan Prophet (for Jesus climbing on the Mount with the Pillars to see Moses and Elijah)

9) the episode of the insignia under Pilate (for the crowd being able to persuade Pilate)

10) the crucifixion of the two sons of Judas the Galilean (for the two zealots crucified with Jesus replacing the sons of Zebedee).

11) the false 'resurrection' of Simon bar Jora (for the angel at the tomb).

12) Banus (for the ascetic portrait of John the Baptist)

13) the anti-zealot despise by Josephus (for the mocking of Jesus as ''king of Jews'' under the cross)

14) the death of James son of Damneus (for the Jesus process before the sadducees for blasphemy).

15) Caesarea Philippi, headquarters of Titus (for the proclaimed messianicity of Jesus by Peter).

Have I missed something? Please add your example.

[Ulan]

Your second number 6 was killed by Pilate (you have two numbers 6 and 7).

Not all parallels are equally strong, but it's funny how easily all these similarities are brushed aside in NT scholarship. A believer I talked to about this at least tried to tell me that Josephus must have taken these stories from the gospels.

[Giuseppe]

Your second number 6 was killed by Pilate (you have two numbers 6 and 7).

Ops. Correct.

I agree that not all the parallels are equally strong, but I am interested to collect them up to where it is possible. The only impression of déjà vu is sufficient to add another parallel . And to suspect that any possible figure used by ''Mark'' couldn't be never a historical Jesus.

[davidbrainerd]

Your second number 6 was killed by Pilate (you have two numbers 6 and 7).

Not all parallels are equally strong, but it's funny how easily all these similarities are brushed aside in NT scholarship. A believer I talked to about this at least tried to tell me that Josephus must have taken these stories from the gospels.

Ah. I was gonna throw that possibility out there. In defense of your believer, Josephus does clearly have a tendency to make stuff up: All those details he adds to OT stories, all those long harangues.

[Ulan]

I'm not denying that this is certainly a possibility that has to be considered. Not sure why he would distribute the stories among such a zoo of would-be messiahs and others though.

[MrMacSon]

Your second number 6 was killed by Pilate (you have two numbers 6 and 7).

Ops. Correct.

• now no. 7 ?? Theudas?

[Ulan]

Your second number 6 was killed by Pilate (you have two numbers 6 and 7).

Ops. Correct.

now no. 7 ?? Theudas?

No. 8, the Samaritan prophet, who claimed he would unearth the vessels of Moses on Mt. Gerizim. However, Josephus doesn't directly say that Pilate killed the prophet, he says: "Many prisoners were taken, of whom Pilate put to death the principal leaders and those who were most influential among the fugitives." This was the incident that cost Pilate his job.

[MrMacSon]

No. 8, the Samaritan prophet, who claimed he would unearth the vessels of Moses on Mt. Gerizim. However, Josephus doesn't directly say that Pilate killed the prophet; he says:

• "Many prisoners were taken, of whom Pilate put to death the principal leaders and those who were most influential among the fugitives."

This was the incident that cost Pilate his job.

• Cheers.

[MrMacSon]

..............................................
Finally, it has been suggested that various first century preacher/Zealots and would-be Messiah figures who agitated for revolutionary or apocalyptic change, and were usually dispatched by the military authorities (perhaps one was even executed by Pilate!), provided a partial model for the creation of Mark’s Jesus figure, or perhaps even that of Q at some stage. But this is a far cry from saying that the Gospel Jesus represents an historical figure in any meaningful fashion, or that thereby we can say that "there was an historical Jesus".

I would like a list of all the possible 'stuntmen' [forerunners] found in Josephus and available to ''Mark'' to invent his Jesus.

Surely the more famous examples are, in order of importance:

1. Jesus ben Ananias (for the judicial process before Pilate and the Temple episode)
2. Jesus ben Saphat (for Jesus being leader of a group of poor Galilean fishers and for Jesus being betrayed by Judas)
3. Judas the Galilean (for Judas Iskariot)
4. Menahem (for the triumphal entry of Jesus in Jerusalem followed by a tragic exit)
5. the Egyptian Prophet (for the arrest in Getsemani followed by the release of Jesus Barabbas)
6. the three crucified saved by Josephus (for the Joseph of Arimathea episode)
7. Theudas (for the Jesus's imitation of Elijah in the wilderness)
8. the Samaritan Prophet (for Jesus climbing on the Mount with the Pillars to see Moses and Elijah)
9. the episode of the insignia under Pilate (for the crowd being able to persuade Pilate)
10. the crucifixion of the two sons of Judas the Galilean (for the two zealots crucified with Jesus replacing the sons of Zebedee).
11. the false 'resurrection' of Simon bar Jora (for the angel at the tomb).
12. Banus (for the ascetic portrait of John the Baptist)
13. the anti-zealot despised by Josephus (for the mocking of Jesus as ''king of Jews'' under the cross)
14. the death of James son of Damneus (for the Jesus process before the sadducees for blasphemy).
15. Caesarea Philippi, headquarters of Titus (for the proclaimed messianicity of Jesus by Peter).

Have I missed something? Please add your example.

• (13) the anti-zealot despised by Josephus (for the mocking of Jesus as ''king of Jews'' under the cross) is interesting. Reference??
  
  • (It would be good to have references to the other passages in Josephus you have in mind, too).
  I'm not sure we can say (14) James was the son of Damneus.
  
  What is the significance of (15) Caesarea Philippi, headquarters of Titus (for the proclaimed messianicity of Jesus by Peter)??

[Giuseppe]

(13) the anti-zealot despised by Josephus (for the mocking of Jesus as ''king of Jews'' under the cross) is interesting. Reference??

I am indebted to Roger Parvus for that reference:

Their lack of sympathy for their would-be savior is reminiscent of the people’s animus against the many Jews who laid claim to kingship after the death of Herod the Great in 4 BCE:

And now Judaea was full of robberies; and, as the several companies of the seditious lighted upon anyone to head them, he was created a king immediately, in order to do mischief to the public. They were in some small measure indeed, and in small matters, hurtful to the Romans, but the murders they committed upon their own people lasted a long while (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 17, 10, 8, my bolding).

http://vridar.org/2014/01/27/a-simonian ... continued/

Note that in that Josephian passage there is all the necessary to derive the titulum crucis episode in Mark: the irony of a mocked person ''created king immediately'' + the irony of the people being punished as result.

What is the significance of (15) Caesarea Philippi, headquarters of Titus (for the proclaimed messianicity of Jesus by Peter)??

The Peter's confession happened in Caesarea Philippi and some would like to think that a reference to Emperor is meant as deliberate contrast.

No. 8, the Samaritan prophet, who claimed he would unearth the vessels of Moses on Mt. Gerizim. However, Josephus doesn't directly say that Pilate killed the prophet,

[/quote]
I mention the Samaritan Prophet as potential midrashical source of the sinedrite pressure on Pilate and/or of the Transfiguration Episode (where Jesus saw Moses, also, instead of his vessels).