Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8619
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by Peter Kirby »

iskander wrote:Jesus was sentenced by a Roman magistrate and Roman soldiers carried out the execution.
It's not all that simple.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3125
Ben C. Smith wrote:My suspicion is that, at first, precisely because of the language of service or slavery, Jesus Christ was imagined as having been crucified, not by the power of the state, but rather by the power of a cruel master or lord. This explains how Romans 13.1-7 and 1 Peter 2.13-16 can be so blessedly naïve about rulers posing a threat to believers; it also explains why 1 Peter 2.18-24 includes its description of Christ's sufferings, not in the section about submitting to rulers, but rather in the section about submitting to masters! At this stage, Jesus' death has not yet been imagined as having occurred at the hands of the state, which is still viewed as a bulwark against potential abuses by individual patricians (masters).

Romans 13:1-7
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.


1 Peter 2.13-17
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.


Mark 15:1-5
And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council. And they bound Jesus and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate. 2 And Pilate asked him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” And he answered him, “You have said so.” 3 And the chief priests accused him of many things. 4 And Pilate again asked him, “Have you no answer to make? See how many charges they bring against you.” 5 But Jesus made no further answer, so that Pilate was amazed.


Acts 8:32
The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so He did not open His mouth."


1 Corinthians 5:7
For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.


1 Corinthians 2:6-7
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Colossians 2:13-15
And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers (τὰς ἀρχὰς) and authorities (τὰς ἐξουσίας), He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.


Philippians 2:8-11
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is lord, to the glory of God the father.


Ephesians 2:2
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince (ἄρχοντα) of the power (ἐξουσίας) of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.


Ephesians 6:12
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Ephesians 4:9-10
In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.


Romans 10:6-7
But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).


1 Peter 3:18-20
He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built.


1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.


Colossians 1:15-16
1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him.


1 Corinthians 10
10 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.


Romans 8:3
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God (did): sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and (as an offering) for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,


Philippians 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


2 Corinthians 11.3-4
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.


Galatians 3.1
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?


Galatians 1:12
For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 2:7-13
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.


1 Clement 42
The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.


Colossians 1:24-27
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


Ephesians 3
For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.


Romans 16:25-27
Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.


1 Peter 1:3-6,10-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ...
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.


Hebrews 1:1-4, 2:1-4
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. ...


Hebrews 8:1-6
Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.


Hebrews 9:11-26
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


Hebrews 13:7-9
7 Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith.
8 Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, and to-day, and to the ages [to come].
9 Be not carried away with various and strange doctrines...


Revelation 1:1-2
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.


Revelation 13.8
And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain from the foundation of the world.


Revelation 5.6-14:
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sing a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

:popcorn:
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by iskander »

Jesus was sentenced by Pontius Pilatus in the story I have read and the Romans crucified people.

I found this report of an archaeological finding , but I don't know how to evaluate its importance.
It was this book of Geza Vermes which alerted me to its existence


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7KA ... on&f=false

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3149&p=70049#p70049
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=528&p=9768&hilit=geza#p9768
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote:
1 Peter 1:3-6,10-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ...
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

This one draws my eye every time. I think it refers, of course, to the classic prophets immortalized in the scriptures, but the only way to tell that those prophets had very carefully inquired of the spirit of Christ in order to indicate the person and the time is to reverse engineer that process and carefully inquire of the scriptures themselves that those prophets left behind. This is a veritable blueprint for constructing a story about Christ out of the raw prophetic materials of the Hebrew scriptures. Or so it seems to me.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by iskander »

I'll leave you both to it :cheers:
User avatar
Blood
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:03 am

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by Blood »

If Jesus = Paschal Lamb, then it follows that the original myth was that "the Jews" sacrificed Jesus. Romans don't sacrifice a lamb during Passover. But during the early second century, the de-mythologizing and historicizing phase began, Josephus was examined, and it was discovered that Jews didn't crucify people in the time they imagined Jesus appeared on earth, but the Romans did. A very convoluted "passion narrative" was then constructed by Mark in which the Romans crucify Jesus, but only very reluctantly, and only because "the Jews" absolutely insist upon it.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
TedM
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by TedM »

Ben C. Smith wrote:This is a veritable blueprint for constructing a story about Christ out of the raw prophetic materials of the Hebrew scriptures. Or so it seems to me.
I agree. But it also is necessary for a HJ to have been validated as the Messiah. If this raw material hadn't existed then it is doubtful that a man crucified during Passover - even if a religious seer of sorts who preached about the coming Kingdom of God would have been accepted by any Jew as their Messiah.

The challenge is to determine what should be expected under both scenarios, and whether the evidence better supports one or the other. One of the complicating factors is the possibility that a man decided himself to 'fulfill' an emerging view of the Christ from scripture. Another is that the emphasis of what was prophetic and what wasn't could have been influenced by the followers of that man as they tried to match up events, his teachings, and personality with scripture.

Perhaps I have mis-understood your point about that particular passage?
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by Ben C. Smith »

TedM wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:This is a veritable blueprint for constructing a story about Christ out of the raw prophetic materials of the Hebrew scriptures. Or so it seems to me.
I agree. But it also is necessary for a HJ to have been validated as the Messiah. If this raw material hadn't existed then it is doubtful that a man crucified during Passover - even if a religious seer of sorts who preached about the coming Kingdom of God would have been accepted by any Jew as their Messiah.

The challenge is to determine what should be expected under both scenarios, and whether the evidence better supports one or the other. One of the complicating factors is the possibility that a man decided himself to 'fulfill' an emerging view of the Christ from scripture.
Yes, that is a possibility. It is one that I do not prefer, however, partly because of the phenomenon known as the messianic secret, which looks to me like a way of smuggling the notion that someone was the Messiah into the life of someone who never claimed that title for himself. I know there are other ways to interpret that phenomenon, including the literal way, in which Jesus really did tell people to keep his Messiahship a secret. I just do not think such a scenario is quite as likely.
Another is that the emphasis of what was prophetic and what wasn't could have been influenced by the followers of that man as they tried to match up events, his teachings, and personality with scripture.
Could be. Sure. At least some of the events, however, seem all too tidy (like the dividing up of garments at the crucifixion as a fulfillment of a Psalm). In such cases, outright invention of an event to "fulfill" scripture seems far more likely to me than that the Roman soldiers really did this and someone said, "Aha!"
Perhaps I have mis-understood your point about that particular passage?
I think you have the gist of it. But the way the verse is phrased makes it sound like some of the correspondences will be subtle (since the inquiry had to be "careful"), and indeed some of them are.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
TedM
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by TedM »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
TedM wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote: One of the complicating factors is the possibility that a man decided himself to 'fulfill' an emerging view of the Christ from scripture.
Yes, that is a possibility. It is one that I do not prefer, however, partly because of the phenomenon known as the messianic secret, which looks to me like a way of smuggling the notion that someone was the Messiah into the life of someone who never claimed that title for himself.
Agree. It is possible that as time went on a HJ came to think of himself more as the Christ than originally. Perhaps he started out as a JTB devotee only to evolve into more over time. I forget who it was - the name Jose comes to mind - perhaps José Antonio Pagola - came to this conclusion over much study.


Another is that the emphasis of what was prophetic and what wasn't could have been influenced by the followers of that man as they tried to match up events, his teachings, and personality with scripture.
Could be. Sure. At least some of the events, however, seem all too tidy (like the dividing up of garments at the crucifixion as a fulfillment of a Psalm). In such cases, outright invention of an event to "fulfill" scripture seems far more likely to me than that the Roman soldiers really did this and someone said, "Aha!"
Yes, but others seem to be quite a stretch in the other direction. Why do that if there is no need to?

But the way the verse is phrased makes it sound like some of the correspondences will be subtle (since the inquiry had to be "careful"), and indeed some of them are.
But if they weren't subtle he wouldn't have been rejected, and thus no resurrection and salvation. And on the MJ side if they weren't subtle it wouldn't have take 500 years to construct such a story and have it be believable.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by Ben C. Smith »

TedM wrote:But if they weren't subtle he wouldn't have been rejected, and thus no resurrection and salvation. And on the MJ side if they weren't subtle it wouldn't have take 500 years to construct such a story and have it be believable.
I think we are working from very different premises here. I do not think that an historical Jesus ever even made a claim to the Messiahship, at least not in the sense that we are accustomed to thinking of such claims. My suggestion is that an historical Jesus attempted something at Passover that went wrong and got him crucified; and then a template was laid over him, as it were, as a means of salvaging his memory for those who had followed him.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
TedM
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Interesting texts regarding the Man from heaven

Post by TedM »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
TedM wrote:But if they weren't subtle he wouldn't have been rejected, and thus no resurrection and salvation. And on the MJ side if they weren't subtle it wouldn't have take 500 years to construct such a story and have it be believable.
I think we are working from very different premises here. I do not think that an historical Jesus ever even made a claim to the Messiahship, at least not in the sense that we are accustomed to thinking of such claims. My suggestion is that an historical Jesus attempted something at Passover that went wrong and got him crucified; and then a template was laid over him, as it were, as a means of salvaging his memory for those who had followed him.
That makes sense. I was just proposing the possibility that he may have over time come to orchestrate his death - if the entry into Jerusalem on a donkey is true then that would evidence of that - but that if he was TOO overt about demonstrating that he was the prophecied Messiah then he possibly wouldn't have succeed at getting killed. So in this scenario too it would help for the prophecies to be too subtle to be easily recognized.
Post Reply