Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

[theterminator]

"Casey argues (IMO plausibly) that Jesus in Mark prays aloud at a little distance from the disciples who hear the beginning of Jesus' prayer before going to sleep. "

why would someone who wanted to be heard seperate himself from his disciples? he is seperating himself from his deciples because he wants to pray in secret, right? isn't there a verse in the nt where jesus advises his deciples to pray behind closed doors ?

[beowulf]

"Casey argues (IMO plausibly) that Jesus in Mark prays aloud at a little distance from the disciples who hear the beginning of Jesus' prayer before going to sleep. "

why would someone who wanted to be heard seperate himself from his disciples? he is seperating himself from his deciples because he wants to pray in secret, right? isn't there a verse in the nt where jesus advises his deciples to pray behind closed doors ?

Perhaps you are right. But it is only an opinion.


Jesus moves away from the small group and then he feels alone with Hashem and then he feels free to express his emotions as those emotions take hold of him


Paul wrote theological essays to members of the established churches who had already been taught the basics of the new belief and Paul intended these epistles to be an important document for the whole movement. The epistles are now a part of the Greek Testament and have kept busy, and are still keeping busy, countless eminent scholars of all persuasions and now also numerous distinguished bloggers

[Diogenes the Cynic]

chapter 5 is a relatively short chapter arguing that the infrequency of references to the Historical Jesus in Paul and other epistles does not imply that the authors did not believe in a historical figure. Generally convincing IMO. Good discussion of how Hebrews 5:7-9 clearly refers to Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane. Explains how it is wildly unlikely that Golgotha would have been a Christian place of pilgrimage while still in use as a place of execution.

More to come.

Andrew Criddle

Does he explain how any witness could have KNOWN about the prayer at Gethsemane? Does he make any argument against the possibility of Mark using Hebrews? This seems kind of weak to me. Hebrews doesn't actually say anything about Gethsemane, just about a prayer which could not have been derived (in either case, Mark or Hebrews) from history, even if Jesus existed.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Casey argues (IMO plausibly) that Jesus in Mark prays aloud at a little distance from the disciples who hear the beginning of Jesus' prayer before going to sleep.

Surely you can see how contrived this is. Casey is prone to some shockingly naive literalism. It's like he;s never been exposed to any New Testament criticism at all.

[spin]

Dave, I'm certainly not averse to the notion of the letter having been significantly amplified by later hands. I take J.C. O'Neill's notion that not all of each letter was written by Paul to heart. They are too long for letters of the period, even Galatians. At the same time I was a little too loose in my previous post, in that I said "the Jews are the children of bondage", when I should have said, "those under the law are the children of bondage".

The gentiles issue is problematic to me. I would wager that much of it is from a later hand. For Paul there is no significant distinction between gentile and Jew, which is one reason why 2:7b-8 doesn't seem to reflect Paul's ideas. For him it is belief or non-belief in his christ. The law impedes that belief. Paul is a Jew and he is not impeded. The people in Jerusalem are Jews, but they adhere to the law. Paul consistently contrasts Jesus and the law.

It is the law that "is basically slavery as taught by the history of its people". Torah observers "think they are children of promise through Sarah, but prove themselves to be children of the slave woman Hagar, as their destiny included slavery.... The seed of Abraham to whom the promises were made was really Christ, and so the faith in the promise was really faith in Christ."

I fear that any verses from Galatians that I provide to show that Paul sees no use for the law would be placed in your second column. It's not that the law is wrong for Paul, but Jesus offers a more efficacious way to righteousness.

And when it comes to the allegorizing, I still don't see it as separate from the material immediately preceding it. The promise is related to belief, linking believers to the free woman, ie Sarah. How do those under the law relate to the free woman (Sarah) and the slave (Hagar)?

[stevencarrwork]

Casey argues (IMO plausibly) that Jesus in Mark prays aloud at a little distance from the disciples who hear the beginning of Jesus' prayer before going to sleep.

Surely you can see how contrived this is. Casey is prone to some shockingly naive literalism. It's like he;s never been exposed to any New Testament criticism at all.

Casey's naive literalism just ruins Mark's story about how the disciples were sleeping while Jesus , the hero, was wrestling with his forthcoming ordeal.

In Mark,Jesus withdraws and prays returns and finds the disciples sleeping , 3 times (just as Peter denies Jesus 3 times). Just how much of a tin ear does Casey have not to know that this is literary artifice?

[maryhelena]

For those interested in the book but without any inside connections, you can do what I did and pre-order the e-book on Amazon for delivery on Jan 16.

The book has been out for 2 weeks in shops in Britain.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks, Andrew, will phone my local Waterstones to see if they have it in store. Just checked amazon uk and the book is now available from them i.e. they earlier had it for release on the 16th January. Right now amazon say they have only 2 books left in stock......So.....all ahistoricists/mythicists out there - time to get writing some amazon reviews - yep, when you have read the book! Can't let Casey think he has said the final word (re Jim West) on the historicist verse the ahistoricist case on JC can we now?? Case closed? - what has Jim West been smoking........................

[beowulf]

Casey's naive literalism just ruins Mark's story about how the disciples were sleeping while Jesus , the hero, was wrestling with his forthcoming ordeal.

In Mark,Jesus withdraws and prays returns and finds the disciples sleeping , 3 times (just as Peter denies Jesus 3 times). Just how much of a tin ear does Casey have not to know that this is literary artifice?

Mark tells the story of a man with a dream and his ordinary companions. His companions continually struggle to understand the new world being created for them by the teacher. The contrast between the man possessed by a pioneering spirit and those victims of passive tolerance evokes uplifting images of what it may be possible.

They sleep and deny three times. Is this a literary artifice? The story written by Mark uses the literary techniques of his time to efficiently tell something the author wants to be remembered. They may have slept only once and denied Jesus only once, but the repetition serves a noble purpose by putting emphasis on the importance of what has happened.

[ficino]

Christian scholars who hold "infallibility" of scripture but who may shy away from calling scripture "inerrant" tend to say that the evangelists report what they learned from witnesses but may organize, even embellish their material to serve rhetorical strategies. So the result is a faithful report about Jesus and his significance but not a transcript - not the ipsissima verba factaque but veritas ipsa.

Can one hold that Mark is replete with literary artifice AND is at its core a reliable account of Jesus' ministry, message and divine mission?

[stevencarrwork]

Thanks, Andrew, will phone my local Waterstones to see if they have it in store.

I'll wait until it gets to Poundland.

Then I can enjoy Casey's explanation that the reason the disciples went to sleep was because they had had a bit to drink (well, it was Passover, wasn't it)

Although obviously they could not get to sleep straight away , what with Jesus wailing away in the background (Some people have no consideration, do they?)

I wonder why Casey thinks Jesus knew he was going to be betrayed that very night. Does Casey think everybody has his psychic powers?

It seems he does, because on page 116 of 'Jesus of Nazareth', Casey informs us that Jesus commented on his forthcoming betrayal, and gives us the very Aramaic that Jesus used.

If Casey can hear Aramaic words spoken 2000 years ago, then there is no reason why Jesus could not have known he was going to be betrayed that very night. All things are possible when you have psychic powers....