Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by Secret Alias »

No it's not, LOL. It's one you invented out of your arse to special plead the Gospels away from counting as biographies
What motivation would I have for inventing something like this. The gospel Passion narrative is a pastiche of various prophetic passages. The empty tomb has already been discussed.

The gospel of Mark has no background information for Jesus and focuses on only a few months. How many biographies provide no background information about the subject of the biography? How many biographies end suddenly with a miraculous event and provide no legacy statement about the great individual. Like Tertullian says about John the Baptist in the Marcionite gospel, Unde autem et Ioannes venit in medium? Subito Christus, subito et Ioannes. The words apply to Jesus in the gospel of Mark but not only with a sudden beginning. A sudden ending too. Not a biography.

And your annoying habit of referencing 'the gospels' like they're a unit. Only Mark matters. If Mark isn't a biography the rest don't matter.
ABuddhist
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:44 pm
No it's not, LOL. It's one you invented out of your arse to special plead the Gospels away from counting as biographies
The gospel Passion narrative is a pastiche of various prophetic passages.
With all due respect, your citing sources for this claim (or linking to where you made citations for this claim earlier) would be very interesting and would strengthen your argument - not that I am disagreeing with you.
Secret Alias
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by Secret Alias »

The argument seen from the other side https://www.jstor.org/stable/26422148
karavan
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by karavan »

ABuddhist, why keep spamming your point on apocalypticism? You know I debunked it, and you know you can't answer literally anything I brought up. No one else is reading your comments but me and occasionally someone else. Who are you looking to fool?

"the gospels are similarly filled with miraculous events and repetitions about Jesus's sanctity"

But they're also fulfilled with Jesus doing mundane things, or just teaching certain things chapter after chapter. Anyone who thinks the Gospel narrative is just one miracle after the other obviously hasn't read it and is trying to come up with an escape trick from basics.

Other facts waiting for a response: whether or not a specific document called "Q" existed, there were obviously pre-Gospel texts that the Synoptic Gospel authors knew of, and ABuddhist, after finally producing his citation for the Buddhism thing ... turns out it has no parallels LOL.


__________

@Secret

"What motivation would I have for inventing something like this."

Ask yourself that. he Gospels are obviously not a pastiche of prophetic passages, that's literally a tiny minority of what they go over. You can easily prove me wrong: Mark is just 16 chapters, so go chapter by chapter and quote each parts which are prophecy based. I guarantee it will be under 10% in the end. Keep in mind I'll look over all your references to see if you're exaggerating the amount of verses being prophetically devoted.

"The gospel of Mark has no background information for Jesus and focuses on only a few months. How many biographies provide no background information about the subject of the biography? How many biographies end suddenly with a miraculous event and provide no legacy statement about the great individual."

Literally plenty of ancient biographies do that. In fact, they're known for doing that. Looks like an equivocation fallacy between the topics covered between ancient and modern biographies.
Secret Alias
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by Secret Alias »

So what you're saying is that the life of Jesus mimicked the prophesies of a suffering servant and the coming of the messiah because of God or some supernatural power/divine providence? Am I understanding you correctly? That the life of Jesus as described in the gospel was 'real,' was exactly as described and that God had previously inspired Isaiah and the author of the Psalms to predict his coming and then He 'caused' Jesus to appear in such a way that Jews would have the opportunity to recognize him as the awaited one and that if they didn't he would condemn them to damnation for their hardness of heart?
Secret Alias
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by Secret Alias »

Literally plenty of ancient biographies do that.
Examples of these four month biographies in antiquity please.
karavan
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by karavan »

"So what you're saying is that the life of Jesus mimicked the prophesies of a suffering servant and the coming of the messiah because of God or some supernatural power/divine providence?"

WHAT? LOL! When did I bring God or divine providence into this? I was responding to your points about genre. Unless you think it requires divine providence for the Gospels to be ancient biographies, ROFL.

"Examples of these four month biographies in antiquity please."

Where the hell did you get "four months" from? LOL. The Synoptics may be about a year in length, whereas John claims to cover a few years. However, even these assumptions are just ... assumptions. Solely based on the Synoptics not explicitly mentioning Passover more than once. This isn't good enough evidence that they therefore did not extend into that time, though. So in reality, we actually just don't know how long the Synoptics covered in real time. All we know is that it's between the beginning to the end of the ministry of Jesus. If that was several years, then the Synoptics covered several years. If it was four months, the Synoptics covered four months. The thing is: we don't know. Including you. Unless you have evidence otherwise. If so, show me the evidence please.

By the way, ancient biographies typically focused on the adult/main part of the life of the people they cover. Guess what the Gospels do? LOL.
Secret Alias
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by Secret Alias »

Right but the reason the gospel was popular was because the life that was being described in its pages 'agreed' or was predicted by the Jewish prophets. Jesus didn't accomplish anything or very much during his brief ministry. The moral lessons were mostly borrowed from Plato and other Greek philosophers. The reason for the fame of the gospel was that the life described there in mirrored the coming of one 'which the prophets predicted.' So it's less of a biography and more of a DaVinci Code-type book i.e. where Dan Brown argues from previously existing things (paintings) that a 'deeper secret is now revealed.'

You can't ignore that the Church Fathers are our earliest example of how the gospel was read. You and your ilk my read it as a biography. But it was read and treated as a prophetic fulfillment text. Indeed only a few people ever read the text and those that did were well versed in the Jewish writings.
Secret Alias
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by Secret Alias »

Epiphany to Passover is even less than four months. I was being generous because of the varying lengths of the post-resurrection appearances.
Secret Alias
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Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf

Post by Secret Alias »

That the gospel is prophetic fulfillment literature rather than biography is literally announced on its first page:
The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”—
“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”
I have to admit I am not enjoying my return to arguing with the ignorant.
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