Re: Gullotta and Hurtado versus Carrier: a 'dialogue' between deaf
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:31 pm
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
At least three of those have been proposed as possible interpolations by mainstream critical scholars, one of whom was virulently anti-mythicist. I guess they just made up for no reason that there was a serious possibility of them being interpolated. Scholars do that, ya know. No reason at all. Just made it up.
This is what Michael the Syrian says:karavan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:26 pm "The reference here was to "all manuscript evidence.""
Nah, we're obviously talking about the fact that if there's a reasonable amount of attestation, interpolations tend to be identified somewhere in that attestation. And it's a fact that partial interpolation is indicated by the known attestation of 18.3.3, which was supposed to be your counterexample.
Michael the Syrian has the phrases "if it be lawful to call him a man" and "for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other things concerning him," in agreement with the Greek manuscripts, even though they're commonly argued to be interpolations. And, Michael the Syrian also has the phase "It is believed that he was the Christ," even though that's also commonly argued to be an interpolation. If we were limited to arguing for textual modifications that are in the "attestation," then on the basis of Michael we would have one new possibility, of rephrasing part of Ant. 18.3.3 to "It is believed that he was the Christ." At least one scholar holds this position, but there are other well-reasoned views of the text that differ.In his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus says, “There was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works — a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and the gentiles. It is believed that he was the Christ, and not as the leaders of the peoples say. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those who loved him from the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.”
I presume your referring tokaravan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm And my last comment is ABSOLUTELY 100% true. If there was the tiniest inkling of evidence to the contrary, a mythicist down here woulda cited it by now LOL ... Just admit it dude, you solely blindly accept the interpolation wee woo nonsense because you need to ... then just go ahead, cite the evidence you wish existed, and prove me wrong for once. ... I just want *evidence* for this interpolation. Can you produce it? ...
Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:59 am
Earlier thread on this topic [Galatians 1:19]:
Shorter Readings of Paul
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1447
Non-HJ Interpretations
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... ation+paul
Especially starting here ("90% of the passages..."):
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... 194#p33194
An extremely high proportion of the supposed references to a historical Jesus in the letters of Paul are absent from the Apostolikon... and, in all likelihood, absent from the letters of Paul and inserted as post-Marcionite interpolations (some of them anti-Marcionite interpolations).
.
absolute neglect of Galatians is not the problem. The actual literary problem is Luke’s apparent relative neglect of the epistle. How can he have made limited, largely negative use of Galatians, as he seems to have done, without knowing its contents? Was Galatians there for Luke to know, or is it the Pauline writer who makes limited, negative use of Acts?
To repudiate Luke’s image of Paul, Bruno Bauer was to declare sixty years after Paley's Horae Paulinae, was part of the purpose of Galatians. Several modern scholars who accept the traditional authorship of Galatians have come remarkably close to saying the same thing e.g. Johannes Weiss (Earliest Christianity) suggests that Galatians was directed against some account not unlike Acts.
Christianity was not 1st century, messianic Judaism hellenised by Paul or anyone else, Bauer contended, but an originally Greek religion judaised in the second century. Acts, with its „apostolic decree“ and the like, is an expression of this quasi-Jewish movement and Galatians a literary reaction. That the author of Galatians had read Acts, Bauer evidently never got around to demonstrating in concrete terms.
It still has "They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive" and "he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders" in the Agapius version, which nonetheless are widely believed to be interpolations.karavan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:28 pm Michael the Syrian DOES have some variance though: he says, not that Christ "was" the Christ in his version, but that he was "believed to be the Christ". And Agapius provides even closer evidence. Agapius:
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus His conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
This is DRASTICALLY different from the other versions of the TF. The only part here which raises ANY suspicion is the final bit at the end. This is unequivocal attestation of a version of Josephus completely lacking the Christian elements. It's almost original, in fact - literally just the few words at the end need to be snipped off, and if you do that, there is 0 remaining suspicion.
Furthermore, in addition to my post-reply just above, -karavan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm And my last comment is ABSOLUTELY 100% true. If there was the tiniest inkling of evidence to the contrary, a mythicist down here woulda cited it by now LOL ... Just admit it dude, you solely blindly accept the interpolation wee woo nonsense because you need to ... then just go ahead, cite the evidence you wish existed, and prove me wrong for once. ... I just want *evidence* for this interpolation. Can you produce it? ...
robert j wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:52 am
I think Paul’s seemingly enigmatic sojourn in Arabia, very briefly mentioned in Galatians 1:17, has a straightforward and reasonably simple explanation.
It seems Paul used Numbers chapter 12, along with Jeremiah and Isaiah, to construct his story about his earliest experiences with a belief in Jesus Christ. And also to construct his story of his "calling" through the grace of God by means of a revelation. Paul associated himself with Miriam from Numbers because he was also ignorant and sinned when he persecuted the assemblies of God, and also like Miriam he was redeemed by God's grace and, like Miriam, the cleansing was capped by a sojourn in the land of Moses. Paul drew on the story of Miriam to construct his own backstory.
Paul evidently told the Galatians and the Corinthians the story in some detail during his initial evangelizing visit --- and he reminded them about the story in his letters as seen in the first citations in the table. The portion about Paul's sojourn in Arabia is highlighted in the last row ---
Paul
Galatians chapter 1
and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 Numbers
Chapter 12 (LXX)
and a bit of Jeremiah and IsaiahFor you have heard of my former way of life in Judaism … (Gal 1:13)
For I delivered to you first of all … (1 Cor 15:3)... I was persecuting the assembly of God … (Gal 1:13)
… I persecuted the assembly of God. (1 Cor 15:9)And Mariam and Aaron spoke against Moses … (Numbers 12:1)
"And why were you not afraid to speak against my attendant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord’s wrath was against them ... (Numbers 12:8-9)And last of all, as the ektroma, he was seen by me also … because I persecuted the assembly of God. (1 Cor 15:8-9)
[Paul was like the ektroma because, like Miriam, he was ignorant and he sinned]… Mariam was leprous like snow … And Aaron said to Moses, “I beg you, Sir, do not lay extra sin upon us, because we were ignorant in that we sinned. Do not let her be like unto death, like an ektroma coming out of a mother’s womb… " (Numbers 12:9-12) But when God, the One having selected me from my mother's womb, and having called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles. (Gal 1:15-16) And a word of the Lord came to him, saying, “Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you, and before you came forth from the womb, I had consecrated you; a prophet to nations I had made you.”(Jeremiah 1:4-5).
[And like Jeremiah, Paul's calling, his appointment, came later. Jeremiah was a youth (1:6) when the Lord said to him --- ]
"Behold, today I have appointed you over nations ... " (Jeremiah 1:10)
[Paul also used Isaiah 49:5-6 here]… the gospel having been preached by me, is not according to man … but by a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)
But when God ... was pleased to reveal His Son in me ... (Gal 1:15-16)… And the Lord … said to them, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet of you for the Lord, in a vision I will be known to him, and in sleep I will speak to him." (Numbers 12:5-6) But when God … having called me by His grace … (Gal 1:15)
… I went away into Arabia and returned again … (Gal 1:17)
[Like Miriam, Paul separated himself in the land of Moses, and returned cleansed]And Moses cried out to the Lord, saying, “O God, I beg you, heal her!” And the Lord said to Moses … Let her be separated for seven days outside the camp, and afterwards she shall enter.” And Mariam was kept apart outside the camp … until Mariam was cleansed (ἐκαθαρίσθη).
(Numbers 12:13-15)
So k wants us to believe that even Loisy and Walker just made stuff up, that they're not real scholars at all.karavan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm
You have not the <<slightest actual inkling of evidence>> for interpolation.
I mean, seriously, let's apply the lightest possible scrutiny to your article on Romans 1:3.
ade that crap up and you just want mythicism to be true, hence literally everything disconfirming your presuppositions is an interpolation.