Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
archibald
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by archibald »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:57 am
archibald wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:56 am I guess I don't know which of the english words, in either text, translates to the Koine Greek chrestos.
χριστος (XPRISTOS) = Christos; generall means 'anointed'.

χρηστὸς (XPRESTOS) = Chrestos; generally means 'good', or 'useful' (often in the case of a slave). It can have been a name.

It's possible the two were mixed up or interchanged deliberately in some instances.

There are other versions of the greek.
Yes.

What's δύσχρηστος though (quoted in the OP for Isaiah)?

And is that the word used in W of S, which means un-useful (in-convenient)? If not, what is the koine word used in W of S?
Giuseppe
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Giuseppe »

archibald wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:16 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:50 am the “Wisdom of Solomon” was probably composed at Alexandria in the first century BCE.

Which implications? Nothing of different from the role played by the Suffering Servant in Isaiah.
No implications for the existence or non-existence of Jesus? You surprise me. :)

No but seriously (I am unfamiliar with this text, the W of S) but at first glance it reads like it describes him? And if it's 1st C, that is a lot more recent than Isaiah (8th C BCE?). W of S would actually be contemporaneous with the period of time (commonly) associated with Jesus, wouldn't it?
Frankly I don't see so much importance in dating Isaiah or WoS, even if I found this.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Secret Alias »

The point clearly is that because there is no reference to 'messiah' in the canonized Jewish writings this represents the oldest explicit reference to the nomen sacrum in the canonized Jewish writings.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Secret Alias »

If the LXX passage (Isa 3:10) corresponded to the Hebrew we'd know in an instant what the Hebrew roots of Chrestos/Christos were. Unfortunately the LXX does not correspond to the Hebrew here. Interestingly the variant 'lie in wait' and 'bind' also finds another parallel in the Wisdom of Solomon:

Wis 2:12 quotes Isa 3:10 of the LXX, which is radically different from the Hebrew, and Wis 15:10; 12:12 quotes Isa 44:20 and Job 9:12,19.
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Secret Alias »

δύσχρηστος 1 χράομαι

hard to use, nearly useless, Xen.; intractable, id=Xen.:—adv. -τως ἔχειν to be in distress, Plut.
1 δύσ-χρηστος, ον
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Secret Alias »

And that christos and chrestos were essentially interchangeable see Syncellus https://books.google.com/books?id=0wILA ... 82&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Secret Alias »

Cyril Catech 13:12

12. They bound Jesus, and brought Him into the hall of the High-priest. And would you learn and know that this also is written? Esaias says, Woe unto their soul, for they have taken evil counsel against themselves, saying, Let us bind the Just, for He is troublesome to us. And truly, Woe unto their soul! Let us see how Esaias was sawn asunder, yet after this the people was restored. Jeremias was cast into the mire of the cistern, yet was the wound of the Jews healed; for the sin was less, since it was against man. But when the Jews sinned, not against man, but against God in man's nature, Woe unto their soul!— Let us bind the Just; could He not then set Himself free, some one will say; He, who freed Lazarus from the bonds of death on the fourth day, and loosed Peter from the iron bands of a prison? Angels stood ready at hand, saying, Let us burst their bands in sunder ; but they hold back, because their Lord willed to undergo it. Again, He was led to the judgment-seat before the Elders; you have already the testimony to this, The Lord Himself will come into judgment with the ancients of His people, and with the princes thereof Isaiah 3:14 .
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Secret Alias
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Secret Alias »

I am looking at the vastly different narrative in Isaiah 3 in the Hebrew and the Greek and have come to some surprising conclusions.

Isaiah 3:10 אמרו צדיק כי־טוב

tell the innocent how fortunate they are

εἰπόντες Δήσωµεν τὸν δίκαιον, ὅτι δύσχρηστος ἡµῖν ἐστι·

saying, “Let us bind the just, for he is useless for us.”

The difference between the Hebrew 'tell' and the Greek 'bind' must come down the mem in אמרו being read as a samek to make אסרו
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:46 pm I am looking at the vastly different narrative in Isaiah 3 in the Hebrew and the Greek and have come to some surprising conclusions.

Isaiah 3:10 אמרו צדיק כי־טוב

tell the innocent how fortunate they are

εἰπόντες Δήσωµεν τὸν δίκαιον, ὅτι δύσχρηστος ἡµῖν ἐστι·

saying, “Let us bind the just, for he is useless for us.”

The difference between the Hebrew 'tell' and the Greek 'bind' must come down the mem in אמרו being read as a samek to make אסרו
That (אִסְר֣וּ for אִמְר֥וּ) looks more likely to me than what Clarke has:

"Pronounce ye." - The reading of this verse is very dubious. The Septuagint for אמרו imru read נאסר neasor, or both, אמרו נאסר imru neasor, and כי לא טוב לנו ki lo tob lanu. Δησωμεν τον δικαιον, ὁτι δυσχρηστος ἡμιν εστι. Perhaps, for אמרו imru, the true reading may be אשרו ashsheru, "bless you;" or אמרו אשרי imru ashrey, "say ye, blessed is." The Vulgate and an ancient MS. read in the singular number, יאכל yochel, comedat, "he shall eat."

"It shall be well with him:" - כי טוב ki tob, "that good." Say nothing to such but good. He is a good man, he does nothing but good, and has a good God to deal with, from whom he expects nothing but goodness. It shall be well with such in all circumstances of life.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Chrestos in the Jewish Scriptures

Post by Secret Alias »

Thanks
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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