Steven Avery wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:50 am Should we not add the lack of a Jesus origin story, including genealogy, as an additional Markan reader's presumption element.
If we stick with actual extant writings, this would make Luke and/or Matthew circulating before Mark
The position for Mark presuming knowledge of the origin of Jesus looks quite strong.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:27 am No. Those elements depend upon the kind of story being told; their absence does not imply previous knowledge on the part of the reader.
Clement of Alexandria made the point very early, and it seems to be accepted by Eusebius.
The presumption element is clearly implied.
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Clement of Alexandria on the ‘Order’ of the Gospels (2001)
Stephen C. Carlson
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... B1323D0CA5
Clement presented a tradition of the original elders (παραδωσιν των ανεκαθεν πρεσβυτερων) about the ‘order’ of the gospels (περι της ταξεως των ευαγγελιων) in this manner: He said that those of the gospels comprising the genealogies were ‘written before’ (προγεγραϕθαι ελεγεν των ευαγγελιων τα περιεχοντα τας γενεαλογιας) ...
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The Gospel of Jesus: The Pastoral Relevance of the Synoptic Problem
By William Reuben Farmer
https://books.google.com/books?id=KkO4qzxHrsEC&pg=PA15
1. This hypothesis is supported by the testimony of Clement of Alexandria who, according to Eusebius of Caesarea, wrote that the Gospels with genealogies were written first. Subsequent interpreters in the church have understood this to mean that Matthew and Luke, each with a genealogy, were written before Mark and John, neither of which has a genealogy. Eusebius certainly accepted Clement’s testimony. He states that Clement is handing on a tradition from the primitive elders “concerning the order of the Gospels.” After mentioning the sequential priority of the Gospels with genealogies, Clement next mentions Mark and then John. This suggests that Clement regarded Mark and John as chronologically following Matthew and Luke.
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Note that you have some notes about the Eusebius exact wording here
http://www.textexcavation.com/gospelmatthew.html
And here
http://www.textexcavation.com/eldertraditions.html
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Here are two less detailed references.
Three Views on the Origins of the Synoptic Gospels (2002)
edited by Robert L. Thomas
https://books.google.com/books?id=xlWveEVuGscC&pg=PA141
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"Clement of Alexandria, living at the turn of the 3rd century, affirmed that the first Gospels must have been the ones including the genealogies of Jesus, namely mt and lk. "
The Synoptic Problem (2013)
Andrzej Kowalczyk
http://digital.fides.org.pl/Content/151 ... noptic.pdf
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If you see Gospels as ultra-late, after 70 AD (or even 2nd century) then you will likely see this differently, since you posit various intermediate writings.
And I am giving the consistent position for those who see NT writings as pre-70 AD. Plus, I see the Theophilus proposal as extremely strong, Luke writing his Gospel to Theophilus when he was the "most excellent" High Priest.
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Steven Avery
Dutchess County, NY