Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
beowulf
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by beowulf »

Is this some sort of experiment? No, It is not.
An experiment?????
:) :) :) :)

Bye
Charles Wilson
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
That´s an experiment: How would an ancient reader of Mark´s gospel imagine the world of Jesus - (who know absolutely nothing about the real geography, but read very carefully)?
http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark09.html#9X

One other consideration might be that Mark was originally a play to a sophisticated audience who knew the players, the background and how the characters and events were being manipulated.
One place where a play of this magnitude could be found would be at Caesarea:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/isra ... an-theater

There are certainly Herod Stories in Mark. "Mark" as a play could have been somewhat easily performed.

CW
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

beowulf wrote:Is this some sort of experiment? No, It is not.
An experiment?????
:) :) :) :)

Bye
It seems to me that you misunderstand me. I am working for a month now about the Syrophoenician Woman and the journey via Tyre and Sidon to the Decapolis (Mark 7:24-31). I have read a lot to it, but I'm not completely satisfied. I have little hope that I can bring something more sense in this story for me. I thought that it is one good idea to understand how Mark developed his geography. My next step will be to go more inside the story.

I thought that my personal opinion about the Syrophoenician woman is not so interesting, but that the “maps” could be a few other members interested. That's why I posted it. It seems to me that a member with a not too conservative view should have no major problems with my maps.

The journey via Tyre and Sidon to the Decapolis is the second contact of Jesus with pagan territory in GMark. At the end of the first trip it all remains the same between Jews and Gentiles. The people of Gerasa ask Jesus to go back to his country. Jesus did not allow the possesed Gerasene to go with him (Mark 5:17-19). But like many scholars I think that the second feeding (of the 4000) is a feeding of the Gentiles (Mark 8:1).The boundaries between Jews and Gentiles are now fallen, but the question is at what exact point.

From Mark 4:41 onwards Mark is developing the question “Who then is this, ...” and this question reaches a first peak in chapter 6. The disciples called Jesus “teacher” (Didaskale) (Mark 4:38), also some of Jairus’ house (Mark 5:35), some said “He is Elijah” and others “He is a prophet ...”, Herod and others mean that Jesus is “John the Baptist who has been raised from the dead” (all Mark 6:14-16). But I would say, that the Syrophoenician Woman beat all these geeks when she said to Jesus “Kyrios” (Mark 7:28). She is also the only person in GMark, who “defeated” Jesus in a word battle.

So my view up to now is that the Syrophoenician Woman really opens the door for Jesus´ gentilic mission in GMark. A very nice tale and I´m a little bit happy that my maps are showing that before the Syrophoenician Woman there was only a great and terrible Sea of Galilee, but after her there is a land route to the country in which the feeding of the Gentiles took place.

If you can take the Gospel of Mark a little bit literary, you should have no problem to interpret Mark´s “Sea”-theme as an illustration for the seemingly unbridgeable boundary between Jews and Gentiles.
beowulf
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by beowulf »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
beowulf wrote:Is this some sort of experiment? No, It is not.
An experiment?????
:) :) :) :)

Bye
It seems to me that you misunderstand me. I am working for a month now about the Syrophoenician Woman and the journey via Tyre and Sidon to the Decapolis (Mark 7:24-31). I have read a lot to it, but I'm not completely satisfied. I have little hope that I can bring something more sense in this story for me. I thought that it is one good idea to understand how Mark developed his geography. My next step will be to go more inside the story.

I thought that my personal opinion about the Syrophoenician woman is not so interesting, but that the “maps” could be a few other members interested. That's why I posted it. It seems to me that a member with a not too conservative view should have no major problems with my maps.

The journey via Tyre and Sidon to the Decapolis is the second contact of Jesus with pagan territory in GMark. At the end of the first trip it all remains the same between Jews and Gentiles. The people of Gerasa ask Jesus to go back to his country. Jesus did not allow the possesed Gerasene to go with him (Mark 5:17-19). But like many scholars I think that the second feeding (of the 4000) is a feeding of the Gentiles (Mark 8:1).The boundaries between Jews and Gentiles are now fallen, but the question is at what exact point.

From Mark 4:41 onwards Mark is developing the question “Who then is this, ...” and this question reaches a first peak in chapter 6. The disciples called Jesus “teacher” (Didaskale) (Mark 4:38), also some of Jairus’ house (Mark 5:35), some said “He is Elijah” and others “He is a prophet ...”, Herod and others mean that Jesus is “John the Baptist who has been raised from the dead” (all Mark 6:14-16). But I would say, that the Syrophoenician Woman beat all these geeks when she said to Jesus “Kyrios” (Mark 7:28). She is also the only person in GMark, who “defeated” Jesus in a word battle.

So my view up to now is that the Syrophoenician Woman really opens the door for Jesus´ gentilic mission in GMark. A very nice tale and I´m a little bit happy that my maps are showing that before the Syrophoenician Woman there was only a great and terrible Sea of Galilee, but after her there is a land route to the country in which the feeding of the Gentiles took place.

If you can take the Gospel of Mark a little bit literary, you should have no problem to interpret Mark´s “Sea”-theme as an illustration for the seemingly unbridgeable boundary between Jews and Gentiles.

Your thoughts deserve a thread of its own away from contaminated land. :cheers:

Your personal opinion about the Syrophoenician woman is what it is interesting and important .

Did Paul interpret Jesus correctly ? Did the cabal opposing Paul in Galatians have the correct interpretation of Jesus?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

One of the questions of my little experiment was: What does Mark really know about the real geography? Is there a point in the Gospel, in which Mark obviously refers to the real geography?

Joe asks the question in this thread: Did Mark Get Any Geography Right? Joe´s view is based on the real geography and he analyzes the differences between the real geography and the geographical representations in GMark. I tried the opposite. I wanted to put myself on the point of view of a literary and symbolic geography and find from this point of view, whether Markus possibly - even unconsciously - refers to the real geography.

A clear result I have not found. But I find a interesting point: the planned crossing of the lake to Bethsaida, where the disciples arrived in Gennesaret (Mark 6:45-53). The majority of scholars (and also Josephus) locate Bethsaida east of the Jordan on pagan territory and Gennesaret on the west side of the lake in Galilee.

IF Mark wanted to make the statement with this crossing scene, that the disciples - against the instruction of Jesus - failed to reach the pagan side, but landed on the “jewish” side, then Mark had to know that these places are located in different cultural and religious areas. An uninitiated reader would suspect on the basis of the hebrew-aramaic name, that Bethsaida is on Galilean territory. Literally the name is rather unsuitable to identify pagan territory. If this were true, then Mark would have a better knowledge of the real geography of the country than suggested by his famous "errors".
beowulf
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by beowulf »

Sidon means Bet Saida (Bethsida)
Mark 7:31
Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis.
Should have been translated as follows:
Then Jesus left the vicinity of Tyre and went through Bet Saida, down to the Sea of Galilee and into the region of the Decapolis


TRACTATE AVODAH ZARAH, CHAPTER THREE, MISHNAH SEVEN:
EXPLANATIONS:
8
Our mishnah now brings a concrete event to illustrate the difference between the sages and Rabbi Shim'on. The incident is described as occurring in 'Zaidan'. It is, of course, very tempting to assume that the reference is to the town of Sidon which today is in Lebanon, several miles north of Nahariyya. But there is considerable evidence to suggect that the reference is, in fact, to the town of Bet Saïda (which in the Christian scriptures as called Bethsaida). This fishing town was near where the river Jordan enters the sea of Galilee in the north.
http://www.bmv.org.il/shiurim/az/az044.html

Bethsaida and the Talmud

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 122a
Abba Judah of Zaidan12
(12) The Biblical iuhm Sidon, on the Western coast of Phoenicia, [or, Bethsaida in Galilee]
Talmud - Mas. Kethuboth 7a
R. Jacob, the son of Idi, said:
R. Johanan gave a decision30 in Zaidan:31
(31) Sidon; [others: Bethsaida]
Talmud - Mas. Kiddushin 82a
Talmud - Mas. Chullin 49b
R. Simeon says:
Even these are prohibited if left uncovered. Indeed, added R. Simeon, I once saw at Zaidan17
(17) Sidon or Bethsaida.
steve43
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by steve43 »

Sidon was the capitol of Phoenicia, now called Saida. It was a major city in ancient times- on the Mediterranean Sea- twenty miles north of Tyre.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

A puzzle about Philipp


Scholars argue that Mark made a mistake in Mark 6:17.
6:16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.” For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s (Φιλίππου - Philippou) wife, because he had married her.
Wiki states:
Herod was the first husband of Herodias, and because the Gospel of Mark states that Herodias was married to Philip, some scholars have argued that his name was actually Herod Philip. Many scholars dispute this, however, and believe the Gospel writer was in error, a suggestion supported by the fact that the later Gospel of Luke drops the name Philip. Because he was the grandson of the high priest Simon Boethus he is sometimes described as Herod Boethus, but there is no evidence he was actually called this.
One could argue that Mark made another mistake in Mark 8:27.
And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi (Φιλίππου - Philippou). And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” And they told him, “John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”
Wiki states:
... and called "Banias, Paneas", or Baniyas (not to be confused with Baniyas in northwestern Syria). The surrounding region was known as the "Panion" ... On the death of Zenodorus in 20 BC, the Panion, which included Paneas, was annexed to the Kingdom of Herod the Great. He erected here a temple of "white marble" in honour of his patron. In the year 3 BC, Philip II founded a city at Paneas. It became the administrative capital of Philip's large tetrarchy of Batanaea which encompassed the Golan and the Hauran. Flavius Josephus refers to the city as Caesarea Paneas in Antiquities of the Jews;.
The city was known by the names Banias, Paneas, Baniyas or Caesarea Paneas in antiquity. It seems that Mark has invented the name Caesarea Philippi.

One might suspect that Mark wanted to connect both scenes by the insertion of the word "Φιλίππου" (Philippou). What connection could this be? What is the reason for this emphasis?
Clive
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Clive »

Mark" as a play could have been somewhat easily performed.
Ever since the Enlightenment, when the gospels began to be studied in a rationalistic frame of mind as literary works within their ancient context, parallels have been drawn between the passion of Jesus and the rituals and mysteries of the dying and resurrecting gods such as Dionysus and Osiris. The death and resurrection of Osiris was enacted annually in a dramatic performance. Greek tragedy evolved from sacred plays in honor of Dionysus. Did primitive Christianity, too, begin as ritual drama?

The economy of the Gospel narratives is related to the ritual commemoration of the Passion; taking them literally we run the risk of transposing into history what are really the successive incidents of a religious drama,

so wrote Alfred Loisy, one of the most perceptive New Testament scholars of our time.[2] J. M. Robertson went even further, claiming that the story of the passion is

the bare transcript of a primitive play... always we are witnessing drama, of which the spectators needed no description, and of which the subsequent transcriber reproduces simply the action and the words...[3]

Even theologians who are less daring in framing hypotheses continue to stumble upon traces of some ancient drama that appears to underlie the passion narrative.[4] S.G.F. Brandon is impressed by the superb theatrical montage of the trial of Jesus[5] ; Raymond Brown finds that John’s gospel contains touches worthy of great drama in many of its scenes and suggests that our text may be the product of a dramatic rewriting on such a scale that little historical material remains.[6]
http://www.nazarenus.com/0-4-tragospel.htm
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:A puzzle about Philipp


Scholars argue that Mark made a mistake in Mark 6:17.
6:16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.” For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s (Φιλίππου - Philippou) wife, because he had married her.
Wiki states:
Herod was the first husband of Herodias, and because the Gospel of Mark states that Herodias was married to Philip, some scholars have argued that his name was actually Herod Philip. Many scholars dispute this, however, and believe the Gospel writer was in error, a suggestion supported by the fact that the later Gospel of Luke drops the name Philip. Because he was the grandson of the high priest Simon Boethus he is sometimes described as Herod Boethus, but there is no evidence he was actually called this.
One could argue that Mark made another mistake in Mark 8:27.
And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi (Φιλίππου - Philippou). And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” And they told him, “John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.”
Wiki states:
... and called "Banias, Paneas", or Baniyas (not to be confused with Baniyas in northwestern Syria). The surrounding region was known as the "Panion" ... On the death of Zenodorus in 20 BC, the Panion, which included Paneas, was annexed to the Kingdom of Herod the Great. He erected here a temple of "white marble" in honour of his patron. In the year 3 BC, Philip II founded a city at Paneas. It became the administrative capital of Philip's large tetrarchy of Batanaea which encompassed the Golan and the Hauran. Flavius Josephus refers to the city as Caesarea Paneas in Antiquities of the Jews;.
The city was known by the names Banias, Paneas, Baniyas or Caesarea Paneas in antiquity. It seems that Mark has invented the name Caesarea Philippi.

One might suspect that Mark wanted to connect both scenes by the insertion of the word "Φιλίππου" (Philippou). What connection could this be? What is the reason for this emphasis?

1 Thess 2:2-4Mark 8:27-33
2 But though we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we had boldness in our God to declare to you the gospel of God in the midst of much conflict. 3 For our appeal does not spring from error or impurity or any attempt to deceive, 4 but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts. 27 And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi. And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” 28 And they told him, “John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others, one of the prophets.” 29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” 30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him. 31 And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he said this plainly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

"For our appeal does not spring from error"
Philipp - a Herodian and a town
Salome (Mark 15:40, 16:1) - a Herodian and a town (Jerusalem)

A further question: What – to hell - James has to do with Salome/Jerusalem in Mark 15:46-47? :mrgreen:

Mark 15:40There were also women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
Mark 15:46And Joseph bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47 Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.
Mark 16:1When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

I'm sure Mark would have been very pleased that historians call so many towns with his fictitious names :D
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