Paul was wealthy

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
PhilosopherJay
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Paul was wealthy

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi DCHindley,

Good luck with this. It sounds like it could be very useful to understanding the Roman economy better.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
DCHindley wrote:In attempts to illustrate the inflation in prices that occurred in the 3rd century CE, everyone is busy making assertions about a denarius being able to buy so many pounds, quarts, pecks or bushels of wheat, but these equations are all very loose, not always being clear whether these are supposed to be Roman, Greek or modern measures, or citing their sources for the equations.

What I am finding is that these loose or imprecise equations occur even in academic articles, often making sweeping generalizations based on isolated regional data. The problem is that there are only a handful of ancient sources citing commodity prices, spread out over the wide geographical area controlled by the Roman empire, rarely citing the standard of the coin being referenced...

...
I have identified some of the sources he may have used for these money to value equations, which I am in the process of organizing and will present later.

Unfortunately, Stefan has gone on to pursue other things that do not relate to ancient history, and I cannot find a copy of his program available online. I thought I had a copy of the self-extracting zip file that installs and sets up the program, but cannot find it on my current hard drive. I might be able to find it on one of several old disembodied HDDs in my desk drawers.

DCH
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Paul was wealthy

Post by Bernard Muller »

There is very useful information about cost of transportation and Diocletian's Edict here in Appendix 17 of this book (The Economy of the Roman Empire ...):
http://books.google.ca/books?id=CjY5AAA ... rt&f=false
One conclusion is the price of transportation by boat was cheap in 301 AD.
But considering the technology between the 1st and 4th century did not improve much, I do not see why the cost of transportation by sea would not be as cheap in the 1st century than in the 4th century (taking in account the huge inflation).

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
beowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Paul was wealthy

Post by beowulf »

That information is of very little value for our purpose


“Baffled by several years of fruitless attacks on the inflation...
The famous Edict De Pretiis published in 301, laid down compulsory maximum prices for most common articles and services, as well as maximum wage rates. It is an enormous document listing about a thousand different items in 32 sections...
The main categories are foods, raw materials, clothing, transport ,wages, and various service charges...the law was all but unenforceable...

Within a few years the whole elaborate edict was a dead letter...
Diocletian’s failure to enforce what he saw as equitable conditions...”


Pages 128-132
Diocletian and the Roman Recovery
Stephen Williams
http://www.amazon.com/Diocletian-Roman- ... 0415918278

Chapter 9, Finance, Taxation, Inflation,
Chapter 10. A Command Economy
PhilosopherJay
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Paul was wealthy

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi All,

Except for mythological characters like Odysseus, and world leaders like Alexander, Julius Caesar, and Cleopatra, does anybody know of any historical persons in or before the first century C.E. who traveled as much as the writer of the epistles claims Paul traveled? Does anybody have a total for the number of kilometers he is alleged to have traveled?
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Paul was wealthy

Post by Bernard Muller »

does anybody know of any historical persons in or before the first century C.E. who traveled as much as the writer of the epistles claims Paul traveled? Does anybody have a total for the number of kilometers he is alleged to have traveled?
Strabo: 64/63 BC – c. AD 24 (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo)
Also, Flavius Zeuxis, 72 times (likely 36 trips) between Italy and Hierapolis (today site of Pamukkale hot springs), 130 kms inland from Ephesus
Ref: http://holylandphotos.org/browse.asp?s= ... g=TWCSHR74
and http://ferrelljenkins.wordpress.com/200 ... ierapolis/

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
PhilosopherJay
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Paul was wealthy

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Bernard Muller,

Thank you for these names. As I wrote to Arnoldo earlier:
According to "The Ancient Lowly: A History of the the Ancient Working People" by Cyrenus Osborne Ward, Flavius Zeuxis was a sea captain and the inscription can be paraphrased this way:
Flavius Zeuxis, a man loving hard toil at his trade, engaged in the good bussiness of mariner, between Malea, the dangerous cape Mary, and Italy, having made in his lifetime seventy-two voyages, causes the erection of the memorial sepulchre
Cape Malea was considered dangerous as it was the place that Odysseus was first blown off-course in his return to Ithaca.
If Ward is correct, Zeuxis is simply saying that he made the trip between Cape Malea and Italy, approximately 800-900 kilometers or 500-600 miles, 72 times or 36 times roundtrip. We may assume that he made the roundtrip voyage twice a year for 18 years, or three times a year for 12 years. The fact that he would put this on his tombstone simply shows the enormous danger ships faced going across even a small open sea of 500-600 miles. The people circa 100 C.E. must have thought it a miracle that anybody could survive the sea voyage back and forth between Greece and Italy 36 times.
As a sea captain, Zeuxis would have been quite rich, especially as his route was quite dangerous. His elaborate tomb testifies to his wealth.

Strabo came from a wealthy family in Pontus near the Black Sea. There is a debate among historians as to how much he actually traveled and how much of the information he relates in his geography comes from other writer's books.

Incidentally, this site http://www2.rgzm.de/navis/Themes/Commer ... nglish.htm suggests how unpredictable sea travel was:
During the entire ancient period transport by sea facilitated the movement of bulky and heavy products across long distances, without a prohibitive rise in costs. Nonetheless, whatever the inconveniences of navigation, voyages by sea offered advantages with respect to land transport which was slow, uncomfortable and dangerous. Not to speak of the cargo capacity: several hundred kilogrammes for a cart, hundreds of tonnes for a seagoing vessel.

With regard to navigation, we can estimate that the distance travelled with a favourable wind in a day’s travel during daylight equalled 700 stadi , with an average speed of 4 or 5 knots. In the case of particularly swift trips, vessels could reach 6 knots. Pliny furnishes several examples: two days to travel from Ostia to Africa (Cape Bon), six days to reach Alexandria through the Straits of Messina, seven days to cross the entire western Mediterranean from Gades to Ostia. But voyages could be much longer: Strabo tells us of a crossing from Spain to Italy which took three months!
Warmly
Jay Raskin




Bernard Muller wrote:
does anybody know of any historical persons in or before the first century C.E. who traveled as much as the writer of the epistles claims Paul traveled? Does anybody have a total for the number of kilometers he is alleged to have traveled?
Strabo: 64/63 BC – c. AD 24 (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo)
Also, Flavius Zeuxis, 72 times (likely 36 trips) between Italy and Hierapolis (today site of Pamukkale hot springs), 130 kms inland from Ephesus
Ref: http://holylandphotos.org/browse.asp?s= ... g=TWCSHR74
and http://ferrelljenkins.wordpress.com/200 ... ierapolis/

Cordially, Bernard
User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: Paul was wealthy

Post by arnoldo »

Bernard Muller wrote:
does anybody know of any historical persons in or before the first century C.E. who traveled as much as the writer of the epistles claims Paul traveled? Does anybody have a total for the number of kilometers he is alleged to have traveled?
Strabo: 64/63 BC – c. AD 24 (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo)
Also, Flavius Zeuxis, 72 times (likely 36 trips) between Italy and Hierapolis (today site of Pamukkale hot springs), 130 kms inland from Ephesus
Ref: http://holylandphotos.org/browse.asp?s= ... g=TWCSHR74
and http://ferrelljenkins.wordpress.com/200 ... ierapolis/

Cordially, Bernard
The Bordeaux Itinerary allegedly documents the journey of a pilgrim in the year 313 between the he cities of Bordeaux and Jerusalem. . . a distance of over 3000 miles.

Image
http://pelagios-project.blogspot.com/20 ... -back.html
Post Reply