OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Source

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
outhouse
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Re: I Buried Y-e-s-h-u-a

Post by outhouse »

JoeWallack wrote: and there is no extant evidence for any Jesus narrative before "Mark".

Fallacy as if extant is anything but non sequitur.


And error in that extant evidence is within mark itself. 70 ish is a compilation date for the book. No one with credibility states it was written start to finish with no previous traditions.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
The following post wishs to show that Mark’s assumed source (Paul) can open the door to an interesting interpretation of Mark.

Mark 5 Matthew 9 Luke 8
24 And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 19 And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples. 20 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, 21 for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. 42 As Jesus went, the people pressed around him. 43 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and though she had spent all her living on physicians, she could not be healed by anyone. 44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. 45 And Jesus said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” 46 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.” 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed.

Interestingly, it isn’t said in Mark 5:29 that she felt in “her” body that she is healed. It’s only “the” body. But clearly we assume that it is her body.

Mark 5:29
... καὶ ἔγνω τῷ σώματι ὅτι ἴαται ἀπὸ τῆς μάστιγος
… and (she) knew (in) the body that (she was) heald from the affliction

But 1 Corinthians 12 could lead to an interesting interpretation.

1 Cor 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many ... 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

In Mark’s story the woman became a part of this great crowd who followed Jesus. Perhaps in Paul’s words we could say that she is now a member of Christ’s body. It could lead to the interpretation that in Mark 5:29 she felt not in “her” body, but as a member in Christ’s body that she is healed.

But it could be that Mark wished to say both. (Matthew and Luke omitted the body.)
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
The following post wishs to show that Mark’s assumed source (Paul) can open the door to an interesting interpretation of Mark.

Mark 5 Matthew 9 Luke 8
24 And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 19 And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples. 20 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, 21 for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. 42 As Jesus went, the people pressed around him. 43 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and though she had spent all her living on physicians, she could not be healed by anyone. 44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. 45 And Jesus said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” 46 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.” 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed.

Interestingly, it isn’t said in Mark 5:29 that she felt in “her” body that she is healed. It’s only “the” body. But clearly we assume that it is her body.

Mark 5:29
... καὶ ἔγνω τῷ σώματι ὅτι ἴαται ἀπὸ τῆς μάστιγος
… and (she) knew (in) the body that (she was) heald from the affliction

But 1 Corinthians 12 could lead to an interesting interpretation.

1 Cor 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many ... 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

In Mark’s story the woman became a part of this great crowd who followed Jesus. Perhaps in Paul’s words we could say that she is now a member of Christ’s body. It could lead to the interpretation that in Mark 5:29 she felt not in “her” body, but as a member in Christ’s body that she is healed.

But it could be that Mark wished to say both. (Matthew and Luke omitted the body.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r679Hhs9Zs

JW:
And now the other side (so to speak):
For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man.

And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.

Joseph

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Charles Wilson
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Charles Wilson »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
The following post wishs to show that Mark’s assumed source (Paul) can open the door to an interesting interpretation of Mark.

Mark 5 Matthew 9 Luke 8
24 And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 19 And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples. 20 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, 21 for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. 42 As Jesus went, the people pressed around him. 43 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and though she had spent all her living on physicians, she could not be healed by anyone. 44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. 45 And Jesus said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” 46 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.” 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed.

Interestingly, it isn’t said in Mark 5:29 that she felt in “her” body that she is healed. It’s only “the” body. But clearly we assume that it is her body.

Mark 5:29
... καὶ ἔγνω τῷ σώματι ὅτι ἴαται ἀπὸ τῆς μάστιγος
… and (she) knew (in) the body that (she was) heald from the affliction

JW, KK and others --

I've always been very interested in this passage and its derivatives (Assuming Mark => Matthew => Luke. YMMV). I don't find this as evidence of a Set of "Pauline" References. Rather, it gives evidence of a more "Primitive" Source, most likely Nicholas of Damascus, or suitable "Others", altho either assertion of NoD or Others leads to problems of their own.

Mark 5: 28 - 33 (RSV):

[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
[30] And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?"
[31] And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, `Who touched me?'"
[32] And he looked around to see who had done it.
[33] But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth.

Follow the Trail:
1. "Discharge of Blood": In all three Passages.
Then:
2. "Many Physicians": Mark and Luke
3. "12 years": IN ALL THREE
4. "for she said...": Mark, "for she said TO HERSELF...": Matthew
The next statements give a Primacy Statement that points to some other idea than "Pauline Material":
5a. "If I touch his garments...": Mark and Matthew, "...came up...and...": Luke
5b. "from behind": In all three passages
6. "Who touched my garments?" ONLY IN MARK! The Disciples in Mark state that Jesus was concerned with "WHO TOUCHED ME?". Matthew makes note of Jesus' notice of the Woman. Luke repeats the "Who touched me...?", only it is now from the mouth of Jesus. I take this, therefore, as a Symbolic Story that has been smoothed in Matthew and Luke to hide the Original Point of the Story, that point being that it is the focus on the GARMENTS that is important and not the Jesus Miracle Story. That this is a more correct reading is implied by the Lukan addition. "...the power has gone out of me...". Why? Jesus is UNCLEAN. [[Edit: Got ahead of myself. Compare Luke with Mark...]]

Leviticus 15: 25 - 28 (RSV):

[25] "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean.
[26] Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity.
[27] And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.
[28] But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.

This is not Pauline. It is from another time and is concerned with another Subject. The Priesthood. The Nation. Something that occurred with the Priesthood that rendered the Nation Unclean for 12 years.

CW
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JoeWallack
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Meat Has Raised An Artificial Spirit In Him

Post by JoeWallack »


Author Verse Key Words Parallel Commentary
"Mark" 7:19
because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly[κοιλίαν], and goeth out into the draught? [This he said], making all meats[βρώματα] clean.
1. κοιλίαν
2. βρώματα
3. Clean
1. The parallel words form the significant part for both authors here.
Paul 1 Corinthians 6:13
Meats[βρώματα] for the belly[κοιλίᾳ], and the belly for meats: but God shall bring to nought both it and them. But the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body:
1. κοιλίᾳ
2. βρώματα
3. for the Lord
The significance of the parallel words to the verses as a whole by itself makes Paul a candidate for "Mark's" source. If the context also parallels then Paul becomes a good candidate, as always, the only known significant Christian author before "Mark".


Joseph

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JoeWallack
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The Parallels of Pauline

Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

JW:
1 Corinthians Chap 2 looks to me like Paul is giving his main theology points. 1 Corinthians is generally thought of as Paul's second Epistle, after
1 Thessalonians. Interestingly, as I have pointed out many times here, 1 Thessalonians never mentions "crucifixion" (as that great 20th century philosopher Alf said, look it up). I have faith that Ken is right, Paul sometimes changed his mind (as I've also said many times here I think Paul was the first to assert that Jesus was crucified). The Paul/GMark connection is slowly getting more notice and in the right direction (Paul to GMark). Specific words/phrases are being matched but thematic matches are still more undeveloped than Hamas missile guidance systems. The following helps illuminate these quality thematic matches starting with just the first 3 verses of the offending Chapter. I have faith that after the thematic matches of the full Chapter GMark will match what Cousin It looked like after the Adam Family gave him a haircut.

1 Corinthians 2

Gee Mark

Paul GMark Commentary
1 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 1:14 Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, The parallel is that what is proclaimed/preached is the Gospel of God (More evidence that 1:1 is not original). Supported by the Pauline corpus (so to speak)/GMark that the source/evidence for belief in Jesus is God as opposed to men.
2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him!
The parallel is that Paul/GMark do not say anything about Jesus either before or after he became Jesus Christ (note well the young man's words, "Jesus the Nazarene" and not "Jesus Christ". The Christ had already flown the corp.). This is a literary technique to emphasize the Jesus/Christ story and not distract with the before/after (more evidence that 16:8 is original).
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 16:8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid. As Paul/The Young Man proclaim the risen crucified the reaction words are matched, trembling and fear. In an irony that I think the author of GMark would really appreciate, believers in GMark will miss who the young man is because they read GMark with existing conclusions (just like "The Jews" in GMark or Palestinian supporters). It requires non-belief to simply accept what GMark's Pauline parallel (the only known significant extant Christian writing before GMark) says, "I was with you". For those who need points sharply explained...


Joseph

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