OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Source

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
outhouse
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Re: I Buried Y-e-s-h-u-a

Post by outhouse »

JoeWallack wrote: and there is no extant evidence for any Jesus narrative before "Mark".

Fallacy as if extant is anything but non sequitur.


And error in that extant evidence is within mark itself. 70 ish is a compilation date for the book. No one with credibility states it was written start to finish with no previous traditions.
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
The following post wishs to show that Mark’s assumed source (Paul) can open the door to an interesting interpretation of Mark.

Mark 5 Matthew 9 Luke 8
24 And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 19 And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples. 20 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, 21 for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. 42 As Jesus went, the people pressed around him. 43 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and though she had spent all her living on physicians, she could not be healed by anyone. 44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. 45 And Jesus said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” 46 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.” 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed.

Interestingly, it isn’t said in Mark 5:29 that she felt in “her” body that she is healed. It’s only “the” body. But clearly we assume that it is her body.

Mark 5:29
... καὶ ἔγνω τῷ σώματι ὅτι ἴαται ἀπὸ τῆς μάστιγος
… and (she) knew (in) the body that (she was) heald from the affliction

But 1 Corinthians 12 could lead to an interesting interpretation.

1 Cor 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many ... 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

In Mark’s story the woman became a part of this great crowd who followed Jesus. Perhaps in Paul’s words we could say that she is now a member of Christ’s body. It could lead to the interpretation that in Mark 5:29 she felt not in “her” body, but as a member in Christ’s body that she is healed.

But it could be that Mark wished to say both. (Matthew and Luke omitted the body.)
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
The following post wishs to show that Mark’s assumed source (Paul) can open the door to an interesting interpretation of Mark.

Mark 5 Matthew 9 Luke 8
24 And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 19 And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples. 20 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, 21 for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. 42 As Jesus went, the people pressed around him. 43 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and though she had spent all her living on physicians, she could not be healed by anyone. 44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. 45 And Jesus said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” 46 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.” 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed.

Interestingly, it isn’t said in Mark 5:29 that she felt in “her” body that she is healed. It’s only “the” body. But clearly we assume that it is her body.

Mark 5:29
... καὶ ἔγνω τῷ σώματι ὅτι ἴαται ἀπὸ τῆς μάστιγος
… and (she) knew (in) the body that (she was) heald from the affliction

But 1 Corinthians 12 could lead to an interesting interpretation.

1 Cor 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many ... 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

In Mark’s story the woman became a part of this great crowd who followed Jesus. Perhaps in Paul’s words we could say that she is now a member of Christ’s body. It could lead to the interpretation that in Mark 5:29 she felt not in “her” body, but as a member in Christ’s body that she is healed.

But it could be that Mark wished to say both. (Matthew and Luke omitted the body.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r679Hhs9Zs

JW:
And now the other side (so to speak):
For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man.

And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.

Joseph

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Charles Wilson
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Charles Wilson »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
The following post wishs to show that Mark’s assumed source (Paul) can open the door to an interesting interpretation of Mark.

Mark 5 Matthew 9 Luke 8
24 And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him. 25 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29 And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 19 And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples. 20 And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, 21 for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I will be made well.” 22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well. 42 As Jesus went, the people pressed around him. 43 And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and though she had spent all her living on physicians, she could not be healed by anyone. 44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased. 45 And Jesus said, “Who was it that touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and are pressing in on you!” 46 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.” 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling, and falling down before him declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed.

Interestingly, it isn’t said in Mark 5:29 that she felt in “her” body that she is healed. It’s only “the” body. But clearly we assume that it is her body.

Mark 5:29
... καὶ ἔγνω τῷ σώματι ὅτι ἴαται ἀπὸ τῆς μάστιγος
… and (she) knew (in) the body that (she was) heald from the affliction

JW, KK and others --

I've always been very interested in this passage and its derivatives (Assuming Mark => Matthew => Luke. YMMV). I don't find this as evidence of a Set of "Pauline" References. Rather, it gives evidence of a more "Primitive" Source, most likely Nicholas of Damascus, or suitable "Others", altho either assertion of NoD or Others leads to problems of their own.

Mark 5: 28 - 33 (RSV):

[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
[30] And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?"
[31] And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, `Who touched me?'"
[32] And he looked around to see who had done it.
[33] But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth.

Follow the Trail:
1. "Discharge of Blood": In all three Passages.
Then:
2. "Many Physicians": Mark and Luke
3. "12 years": IN ALL THREE
4. "for she said...": Mark, "for she said TO HERSELF...": Matthew
The next statements give a Primacy Statement that points to some other idea than "Pauline Material":
5a. "If I touch his garments...": Mark and Matthew, "...came up...and...": Luke
5b. "from behind": In all three passages
6. "Who touched my garments?" ONLY IN MARK! The Disciples in Mark state that Jesus was concerned with "WHO TOUCHED ME?". Matthew makes note of Jesus' notice of the Woman. Luke repeats the "Who touched me...?", only it is now from the mouth of Jesus. I take this, therefore, as a Symbolic Story that has been smoothed in Matthew and Luke to hide the Original Point of the Story, that point being that it is the focus on the GARMENTS that is important and not the Jesus Miracle Story. That this is a more correct reading is implied by the Lukan addition. "...the power has gone out of me...". Why? Jesus is UNCLEAN. [[Edit: Got ahead of myself. Compare Luke with Mark...]]

Leviticus 15: 25 - 28 (RSV):

[25] "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean.
[26] Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity.
[27] And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.
[28] But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.

This is not Pauline. It is from another time and is concerned with another Subject. The Priesthood. The Nation. Something that occurred with the Priesthood that rendered the Nation Unclean for 12 years.

CW
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Meat Has Raised An Artificial Spirit In Him

Post by JoeWallack »


Author Verse Key Words Parallel Commentary
"Mark" 7:19
because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly[κοιλίαν], and goeth out into the draught? [This he said], making all meats[βρώματα] clean.
1. κοιλίαν
2. βρώματα
3. Clean
1. The parallel words form the significant part for both authors here.
Paul 1 Corinthians 6:13
Meats[βρώματα] for the belly[κοιλίᾳ], and the belly for meats: but God shall bring to nought both it and them. But the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body:
1. κοιλίᾳ
2. βρώματα
3. for the Lord
The significance of the parallel words to the verses as a whole by itself makes Paul a candidate for "Mark's" source. If the context also parallels then Paul becomes a good candidate, as always, the only known significant Christian author before "Mark".


Joseph

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The Parallels of Pauline

Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

JW:
1 Corinthians Chap 2 looks to me like Paul is giving his main theology points. 1 Corinthians is generally thought of as Paul's second Epistle, after
1 Thessalonians. Interestingly, as I have pointed out many times here, 1 Thessalonians never mentions "crucifixion" (as that great 20th century philosopher Alf said, look it up). I have faith that Ken is right, Paul sometimes changed his mind (as I've also said many times here I think Paul was the first to assert that Jesus was crucified). The Paul/GMark connection is slowly getting more notice and in the right direction (Paul to GMark). Specific words/phrases are being matched but thematic matches are still more undeveloped than Hamas missile guidance systems. The following helps illuminate these quality thematic matches starting with just the first 3 verses of the offending Chapter. I have faith that after the thematic matches of the full Chapter GMark will match what Cousin It looked like after the Adam Family gave him a haircut.

1 Corinthians 2

Gee Mark

Paul GMark Commentary
1 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 1:14 Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, The parallel is that what is proclaimed/preached is the Gospel of God (More evidence that 1:1 is not original). Supported by the Pauline corpus (so to speak)/GMark that the source/evidence for belief in Jesus is God as opposed to men.
2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him!
The parallel is that Paul/GMark do not say anything about Jesus either before or after he became Jesus Christ (note well the young man's words, "Jesus the Nazarene" and not "Jesus Christ". The Christ had already flown the corp.). This is a literary technique to emphasize the Jesus/Christ story and not distract with the before/after (more evidence that 16:8 is original).
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 16:8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid. As Paul/The Young Man proclaim the risen crucified the reaction words are matched, trembling and fear. In an irony that I think the author of GMark would really appreciate, believers in GMark will miss who the young man is because they read GMark with existing conclusions (just like "The Jews" in GMark or Palestinian supporters). It requires non-belief to simply accept what GMark's Pauline parallel (the only known significant extant Christian writing before GMark) says, "I was with you". For those who need points sharply explained...


Joseph

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Get Them To The Greek

Post by JoeWallack »

Meat Loaf - You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:

Verse Point Commentary
10
1 And he arose from thence and cometh into the borders of Judaea and beyond the Jordan: and multitudes come together unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.
2 And there came unto him Pharisees, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? trying him.
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5 But Jesus said unto them, For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
6 But from the beginning of the creation, Male and female made he them.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife;
8 and the two shall become one flesh: so that they are no more two, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
10 And in the house the disciples asked him again of this matter.
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her:
12 and if she herself shall put away her husband, and marry another, she committeth adultery.
Specifically regarding divorce, what God wants is no divorce, which is stricter than The Law. The Markan Sandwich consists of exteriors which generally involve teachings/lessons and make the same point. The interior returns to the narrative and the point of the exteriors is supposed to be applied to the interior narrative.
    • 13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them.
      14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
      15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein.
      16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them.
- The matching point of the Exteriors is not being able to follow The Law. The narrative on its face, bringing little children to Jesus so he can touch them, is strange/bizarre/macabre/illegal?. The figurative meaning though to the salvation. The Greek name "Paul" means "little". Paul's theology is that the Jewish Law was impossible to follow. There needed to be "another Way". To enter the Kingdom of God you have to follow Paul's Way.

For the offending line it should be no surprise that "Mark's" Jesus confesses that he is not "good", only God is. "Mark's" implication at the start is that Jesus was a sinner just like everyone else before the baptism. Clearly Jesus is not perfect in the rest of GMark either. To think that Jesus might be perfect per GMark is anachronistic. If Jesus was not able to follow The Law then you will not be able to either.
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through a needle`s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved?
27 Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.
Generally, just following The Law is not enough to be good. In typical fashion the point of all the above is summarized at the end, "With men it is impossible".


Joseph

From our Home Temple In Jerusalem King Dave's CAIR's Top Ten reasons MF Akram selected a synagogue to take hostages:

10) Wanted to prove he was not antisemitic by showing that some of his best hostages are Jewish.

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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Source

Post by schillingklaus »

Markan prioritism is once again the broad way to error and hallucination, and mainline scholars are bound thither. Of course there were pre-Markan gospel narratives, and Mark's is nothing but a late patchwork combining these in one way, whereas the other gospels did so in different ways. So Mark is jumping frequently improviso between more Matthean-like style and more Lukan-like content, as figured by Jean Magne in the case of the passion story, the feeding of 5000, and the cena.
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The Perils Of Pauline

Post by JoeWallack »

I told you bout the unholy see, yeah,
You know it's as corrupt as can be yeah.
Well here's another clue for you'll, all.
The Walpurgis was Paul.



JW:

Author Dietary Holiday Commentary
Fake Paul Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink
or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
-
"Mark" Mark 2
15 And it came to pass, that he was sitting at meat in his house, and many publicans and sinners sat down with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
16 And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with the sinners and publicans, said unto his disciples, [How is it] that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
23 And it came to pass, that he was going on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears.
24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
-


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For KK's Eyes Only

Post by JoeWallack »

I told you bout the Unholy See Yah,
You know it's as corrupt as can be Yah.
Well here's another clue for you all all,
The Walpurgis was Paul.


Verse 14
51 And a certain young man followed with him, having a linen cloth cast about him, over [his] naked [body]: and they lay hold on him;
52 but he left the linen cloth, and fled naked.
16
5 And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed.
Theological status Did not follow Jesus while Jesus was alive Preached following Jesus after Jesus died

Who could this possibly refer to?

Bonus question for Solo: Who is the only significant Christian author before "Mark" and who famously wrote that they didn't start following Jesus until after he (Jesus) died?


Joseph

Hakuni Markata,
Ain't no passing phrase.
It's our problem free,
philology.
Hakuni Markata,


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