OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Source

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Source

Post by JoeWallack »

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's (Writings). Paul as Markan Source (The Parallels of Pauline)


You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
The purpose of this Thread is to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Paul as a Source.

Author's Assumptions:
  • 1) "Mark" is primarily fiction so its sources are primarily not historical.

    2) "Mark" has significant sources other than his imagination.

    3) "Mark's" literary Intent was one of the following:
    • 1 - Promote Paul's themes

      2 - Use Paul's themes to write a really good story (most likely)

      3 - Make fun of Paul's themes.
Over at Neal Godfree's superior Vridar:

Clark's criteria for valid parallels

Neal discusses criteria for valid parallels:
1. Similarity in content

Too vague to stand on its own as a criterion of authorial intention for passages to be read in parallel. May complement other similarities.

2. Similarity in language

Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

3. Literary form

May not stand on its own but can complement other similarities. Healings of paralytics by Peter (Acts 3:1-10) and Paul (14:8-10) share a common literary form as both contain information about the place, action of the man, word of healing, gesture of healing, immediate occurrence of healing, demonstration of healing, and effect on the crowd (from Ludemann, Early Christianity ( via: Amazon UK ), 53).

Sometimes better to speak of distinct literary motifs in common: example, the double visions in each of the conversions of Saul (9:1-19) and Peter (10:1-48).

4. Sequence

The more extensive a sequence is the stronger it is as an indicator of intentional parallelism. Sequences may not always be in the same strict order, however.

5. Structure

Larger parallel structures, even though not always perfectly matched, are another strong indication of an intent to create a double pattern. Examples: Talbert's 32 parallels of content and sequence between the Gospel of Luke and Acts; between Acts 1-12 and Acts 13-28. The parallel structures suggest an intention to highlight a theme of continuity between Jesus and his disciples, and between the apostles and Paul.

6. Theme

Another complementary criterion that carries weight when in conjunction with other criteria. Perhaps also an essential criterion.

Also note: Disruption of the text

If the flow of the text is disrupted, or if a pericope is awkward internally, where a parallel appears, this is a strong indicator that the parallel was an important feature in the author's mind.
The initial contribution to this Thread is inspired by Neal's recent discovery of my recent discovery of Joel Watts' secret life as a "Mythicist":

Joel Watts Acclaims Thomas Brodie a Scholarly "Giant" and His Work "A Masterpiece"

and according to the apparently Broadie standards of McGwrath as to what qualifies as a "Mythicist", portraying large chunks of Gospel narrative as large chunks of a source(s) that is not history, makes you a largely (SH, look out!) "Mythicist". Regarding the current relationship of McGwrath to Watts, last I heard McGwrath's attitude was still pretty far from okay.

So in an irony that the author of "Mark" would really appreciate, Godfree and Watts are now on the same side of the HJ/AJ/MJ issue. Me, Godfree, Bob Dole and the American public know it. Watts does not.

Not as important is that Watts' Mimetic Criticism and the Gospel of Mark ( via: Amazon UK ) has provided the Bridge for me to answer a question which has long eluded Christian Bible scholarship, Who was that Marked Young Man? While Christian guesses have contributed nothing to scholarship they have made significant contributions to comedy. Bauckham concludes that because the identity of the young man is unknown the identity of the young man is known.

The key to finding something lost is to start looking for it in the "right" places:

The Jewish Bible Paul Markan Failure Markan Success Commentary
2 Kings 2:13 "He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of the Jordan." Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ." 14:51 "And a certain young man followed with him, having a linen cloth cast about him, over [his] naked [body]: and they lay hold on him; but he left the linen cloth, and fled naked. " 16:5 "And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. " Per Markan Failure the Young Man loses the garment of Christ, the linen, which the sacrificed Christ was wearing, by abandoning Christ. Per Markan Success, the Young Man gains the garment of Christ, the white robe, which the transformed Christ was wearing, by proclaiming the resurrected Christ

So let the Reader understand (Yahwan). Of course my greatest wish here is that I could charge you guys for this but a distant second is that we could all persuade The Legendary Vorkosigan to resurrect his "Mark" sight so he could add swell stuff like this.

Regarding source in general and specifically here, CBS (Christian Bible Scholarship) has traditionally assumed that there is a historical source behind Markan pericopes and Paul was not a source. Contra CBS though I point out (again) that there is no known extant source for the Jesus narrative before "Mark" but there is a significant Christian author before, Paul. CBS is starting to accept that "Mark" is not a simple narrative but has style. The next step is to demonstrate the quality parallels between Paul and "Mark" and keep repeating that "Mark" is exponentially more likely to have a source which has extant evidence for existence than a source which has none.



Joseph

ErrancyWiki
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Image
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

I Buried Y-e-s-h-u-a

Post by JoeWallack »

Bad Romans

I told you bout Patricity yea,
You know its corrupt as can be yea.
Well here's another clue for you awall.
The man at the Tomb was Paul.



JW:
Ladies and Gentilemen, I now introduce to this Thread the Legendary Vorkosigan who has written on the subject:

Excursus: Did the Gospel of Mark know the Pauline Corpus?[bold=mine]
"...despite the near-total absence of synoptic Jesus tradition in Paul’s letters, his story-grounded preaching marks a point on a historical trajectory towards the composition of written narratives.” R.B. Hays.

Imagine if we went back to the OT to search for more sources of Mark's gospel, and we came across the following passage in Psalm 151:

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into him were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as he was raised from the dead through the glory of YHWH, we too may live a new life.

What if, a few passages later in that same Psalm, we chanced upon this text:

because those who are led by the Spirit of the Lord are sons of YHWH. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are YHWH's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

We might begin to suspect that we had found the source of the baptism story in Mark 1:9-11. After all, the same themes appear there. For example, Psalm 151 uses "baptism" as a metaphor for death, just as Mark 10:38-39 does:

Psalm 151: Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into him were baptized into his death?

38: But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" 39: And they said to him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized; (RSV)

In this passage the spirit of God descends on the baptized one, as we see in Mark 1:10:

Psalm 151: For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. (NIV)

1:10: And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; (RSV)

There too, in this passage, we find the idea that those baptized are the sons of God. Recall that the Christology of Mark is Adoptionist, that is, the writer presents Jesus as a person adopted as the Son of God. In that light, compare Psalm 151 and Mark 1:11:

because those who are led by the Spirit of the Lord are sons of YHWH.

1:11: and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." (RSV)

In Psalm 151 "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit" that the believer is God's son.

There's another idea in Psalm 151 that we also see in Mark. One verse reminds us of the Garden of Gethsemane:

And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” (NIV)

14:36: And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt." (RSV)

Clearly, given all the affinities between the OT and Mark that scholars have postulated, frequently on much slimmer grounds, we would be quite justified in seeing Psalm 151 as a potential source of the Baptism scene. The only problem with this thesis is that there is no Psalm 151. These passages are not from the Old Testament. They are from Paul's Letter to the Romans.
As always, mark my words well. Paul is the only significant extant Christian author before "Mark" and there is no extant evidence for any Jesus narrative before "Mark".



Joseph

ErrancyWiki
User avatar
Tenorikuma
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:40 am

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Tenorikuma »

JoeWallack wrote:
The Jewish Bible Paul Markan Failure Markan Success Commentary
2 Kings 2:13 "He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of the Jordan." Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ." 14:51 "And a certain young man followed with him, having a linen cloth cast about him, over [his] naked [body]: and they lay hold on him; but he left the linen cloth, and fled naked. " 16:5 "And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. " Per Markan Failure the Young Man loses the garment of Christ, the linen, which the sacrificed Christ was wearing, by abandoning Christ. Per Markan Success, the Young Man gains the garment of Christ, the white robe, which the transformed Christ was wearing, by proclaiming the resurrected Christ

If you just came up with that, you get a standing ovation from me.

Honestly, it's a shame some of the more brilliant posts on this forum don't get wider attention.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

delete
Last edited by Kunigunde Kreuzerin on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

note: GMark makes a sharp distinction between God's power/the manifestations of that power (δυναμις – dunamis) and signs of miracles and wonders (σημεῖα - sêmeia) (- not respected by the redactor, who added Mark 16, 9-20)

1 Cor 1,22-24 Mark 6,2 Mark 8,11-12 Mark 9,38-39 Mark 13,3-4 Mark 13,22
„For Jews demand signs (σημεῖα - sêmeia) and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power (δύναμιν - dunamin) of God and the wisdom (σοφίαν· - sophian) of God.“ „And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom (σοφία – sophia) given to him? How are such mighty works (δυνάμεις - dunameis) done by his hands?“ „The Pharisees came and began to argue with him, seeking from him a sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion) from heaven to test him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, Why does this generation seek a sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion)? Truly, I say to you, no sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion) will be given to this generation.“ „John said to him, Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us. But Jesus said, Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work (δύναμιν - dunamin) in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me.“ „And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion) when all these things are about to be accomplished?“ „For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs (σημεῖα - sêmeia) and wonders (τέρατα - terata) ...“

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:note: GMark makes a sharp distinction between God's power/the manifestations of that power (δυναμις – dunamis) and signs of miracles and wonders (σημεῖα - sêmeia) (- not respected by the redactor, who added Mark 16, 9-20)

1 Cor 1,22-24 Mark 6,2 Mark 8,11-12 Mark 9,38-39 Mark 13,3-4 Mark 13,22
„For Jews demand signs (σημεῖα - sêmeia) and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power (δύναμιν - dunamin) of God and the wisdom (σοφίαν· - sophian) of God.“ „And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom (σοφία – sophia) given to him? How are such mighty works (δυνάμεις - dunameis) done by his hands?“ „The Pharisees came and began to argue with him, seeking from him a sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion) from heaven to test him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, Why does this generation seek a sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion)? Truly, I say to you, no sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion) will be given to this generation.“ „John said to him, Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us. But Jesus said, Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work (δύναμιν - dunamin) in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me.“ „And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign (σημεῖον - sêmeion) when all these things are about to be accomplished?“ „For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs (σημεῖα - sêmeia) and wonders (τέρατα - terata) ...“

JW:
A wise post demonstrating powerful parallels between Paul and "Mark". 1 Thessalonians is considered Paul's first Epistle and I've noted with interest that it never mentions that Jesus was crucified. I've argued that it is because Jesus was not historically crucified, Paul developed that argument later (and was the first to assert that Jesus was crucified). But that is another Thread. I've previously demonstrated and than some that regarding Style, 1 Thessalonians has the same ironic contrasting balance that "Mark" has which I will present here later. For now I present the big picture show parallels between 1 Thessalonians and "Mark" regarding The Gospel and related sequence:

The sequence of 1 Thessalonians as a whole is:
  • 1) Delivery of the Gospel

    2) Reception of the Gospel

    3) Message of Enduring in Affliction

    4) Reward of the Gospel

    5) Timing of the Reward
The related sequence of "Mark":
  • 1) Delivery of the Gospel
    • Chapters 1 and 3
    2) Reception of the Gospel
    • Chapters 6 and 7
    3) Message of Enduring in Affliction
    • Chapters 8 and 9
    4) Reward of the Gospel
    • Chapter 13
    5) Timing of the Reward
    • Chapter 13, after 4)
Thus the sequence of "Mark" as to major themes parallels the sequence of major themes of 1 Thessalonians reMarkably well. Note especially that no one needs to pretend that history is an explanation for the parallels here as the subject here is literary.

As always, the only extant evidence before "Mark" is Paul. Both parallel in that the primary theme is the Gospel and not Jesus. Jesus is the most important part of the Gospel, but still secondary. It's Paul and "Mark" who have to convince, not Jesus. Paul and "Mark" are both primarily about Missions, missions involving Jesus, but still missions, and this phenomena would otherwise be unknown in Greco-Roman biography but be a standard element of Greek Tragedy.


Joseph

ErrancyWiki
User avatar
stephan happy huller
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by stephan happy huller »

Mark 14:51 σινδόνα
Mark 16:5 στολὴν

How do you explain the different wording in the two accounts? A στολή is not a σινδών. The latter is a sheet, the former an article of clothing. I don't think an ancient reader would read σινδών and equate it with στολή. One isn't supposed to wear a σινδών in public. You may be on to something but if there is an allegory behind this the στολή is the heavenly robe Adam lost in Paradise and the σινδών is symbolic of what is taken off at baptism before the reception of the robe of light. The equation isn't στολή = σινδών. It is dangerous to make these formulas without noticing the different words.
Everyone loves the happy times
User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by JoeWallack »

stephan happy huller wrote:Mark 14:51 σινδόνα
Mark 16:5 στολὴν

How do you explain the different wording in the two accounts? A στολή is not a σινδών. The latter is a sheet, the former an article of clothing. I don't think an ancient reader would read σινδών and equate it with στολή. One isn't supposed to wear a σινδών in public. You may be on to something but if there is an allegory behind this the στολή is the heavenly robe Adam lost in Paradise and the σινδών is symbolic of what is taken off at baptism before the reception of the robe of light. The equation isn't στολή = σινδών. It is dangerous to make these formulas without noticing the different words.
JW:
Well, as Madonna said in the classic Moon Over Parador, "To be alive is dangerous."

I've given a name to CBS' (Christian Bible Scholarship) unnatural fear of Gospel parallels, especially those regarding the Jewish Bible, Parallel(OT)phobia. The first step in looking for parallels is to identify the claimed parallel. Let's explore in the table below:

Markan description of negative Jesus follower behavior Language Marker Commentary
14:51 And a certain young man followed with him, having a linen cloth cast about him, over [his] naked [body]: and they lay hold on him; (ASV) σινδόνα The young man is explicitly described as following Jesus. The only adjective provided is that he was wearing the offending word when he ran away from Jesus and "lost it"
15:46 And he bought a linen cloth, and taking him down, wound him in the linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of a rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. σινδόνι Again, the offending word is the only adjective given and is what Jesus was wearing when everyone stopped following him. Note especially that these are the only two scenes where the offending word is used

The objective part is that the parallel exists. The subjective part is the significance of the parallel. How significant are the related verses to Markan theme? Since the issue of success/failure in following Jesus appears to be the most important Markan theme, this suggests that the placement of the offending word is significant which is support for intent. Potentially, this could be lessened based on common usage, but how likely would it have been that the young man was wearing a sheet when it was not Halloween (Although that could explain a lot)? While there's no shortage of self-appointed serious CBS commentary that provides related possible reasons, I see it as contrived. This than opens the door to possible source of the Pauline tome.


Joseph

ErrancyWiki
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:Paul and "Mark" are both primarily about Missions, missions involving Jesus, but still missions, and this phenomena would otherwise be unknown in Greco-Roman biography but be a standard element of Greek Tragedy.
That's very interesting. What's a good example of such a tragedy?
Post Reply