OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Source

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The Parallels of Pauline

Post by JoeWallack »

I told you 'bout the Way and Meme, "Mark".
You know that they're as close as can be, "Mark".
Well, here's another clue for you awwall.
The Way was Paul's


JW:
Recently posted by Super Skeptic Neil Godfree:

Jesus’ Crucifixion As Symbol of Destruction of Temple and Judgment on the Jews
I’m slowly beginning to see the Gospel of Mark as being written in Paul’s wake after many years of scepticism. I have not found supposed parallels to Paul’s expressions persuasive, but the larger themes, the more I reflect on them, do seem to have a strong coherence. Paul, I am assuming, was not himself anticipating the fall of Jerusalem. Mark is dealing with the new situation.
JW:
As Baruch WillsUs said in the classic Die Hard, "Welcome to the Party, Paul


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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Bernard Muller »

I’m slowly beginning to see the Gospel of Mark as being written in Paul’s wake after many years of scepticism. I have not found supposed parallels to Paul’s expressions persuasive, but the larger themes, the more I reflect on them, do seem to have a strong coherence. Paul, I am assuming, was not himself anticipating the fall of Jerusalem. Mark is dealing with the new situation"Mark" knew about some of the Pauline epistles or even Paul himself.
I agree.

Here is a set of evidence which I think are the most clear-cut:
http://historical-jesus.sosblogs.com/Hi ... b1-p70.htm
Also to consider: light, seed & harvest from themes in Paul's letters reappear in the Markan parables.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Adamczewski, Bartosz
The Gospel of Mark
A Hypertextual Commentary

Introduction
This commentary greatly differs from other modern commentaries on the Gospel of Mark. The difference results from the particular methodological approach which has been adopted therein. Instead of explaining the Marcan Gospel in historicalcritical terms as a result of redactional use of earlier sources or traditions, in narratological terms as a set of narrative-organizing devices, etc., this commentary aims at explaining it as a result of a sequential hypertextual reworking of three Pauline letters: to the Galatians, the first to the Corinthians, and to the Philippians.
Contents
1. Mk 1-7 (cf. Gal).............................................................................................. 31
1.1. Mk 1:1-8 (cf. Gal 1:1-12)......................................................................... 31
1.2. Mk 1:9-20 (cf. Gal 1:13-16b)................................................................... 38
1.3. Mk 1:21-2:12 (cf. Gal 1:16c-17).............................................................. 47
1.4. Mk 2:13-3:6 (cf. Gal 1:18-20).................................................................. 52
1.5. Mk 3:7-5:20 (cf. Gal 1:21-24).................................................................. 59
1.6. Mk 5:21-43 (cf. Gal 2:1-2)....................................................................... 76
1.7. Mk 6:1-6 (cf. Gal 2:3-5)........................................................................... 80
1.8. Mk 6:7-44 (cf. Gal 2:6-14)....................................................................... 81
1.9. Mk 6:45-56 (cf. Gal 2:15-3:9).................................................................. 91
1.10. Mk 7:1-23 (cf. Gal 3:10-5:21)................................................................ 94
1.11. Mk 7:24-37 (cf. Gal 5:22-6:18).............................................................. 99
2. Mk 8-13 (cf. 1 Cor)....................................................................................... 103
2.1. Mk 8:1-21 (cf. 1 Cor 1:1-31).................................................................. 103
2.2. Mk 8:22-26 (cf. 1 Cor 2:1)..................................................................... 108
2.3. Mk 8:27-9:1 (cf. 1 Cor 2:2-6)................................................................. 110
2.4. Mk 9:2-13 (cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9).................................................................... 114
2.5. Mk 9:14-29 (cf. 1 Cor 2:10-3:17)........................................................... 118
2.6. Mk 9:30-50 (cf. 1 Cor 3:18-6:11)........................................................... 120
2.7. Mk 10:1-16 (cf. 1 Cor 6:12-7:16)........................................................... 124
2.8. Mk 10:17-31 (cf. 1 Cor 7:17-40)............................................................ 128
2.9. Mk 10:32-52 (cf. 1 Cor 8:1-9:27)........................................................... 133
2.10. Mk 11:1-19 (cf. 1 Cor 10:1-11:26)....................................................... 139
2.11. Mk 11:20-12:17 (cf. 1 Cor 11:27-15:11).............................................. 144
2.12. Mk 12:18-44 (cf. 1 Cor 15:12-31)........................................................ 149
2.13. Mk 13 (cf. 1 Cor 15:32-16:24)............................................................. 156
3. Mk 14-16 (cf. Phlp)...................................................................................... 165
3.1. Mk 14:1-25 (cf. Phlp 1:1-18).................................................................. 165
3.2. Mk 14:26-52 (cf. Phlp 1:19-30).............................................................. 172
3.3. Mk 14:53-15:15 (cf. Phlp 2:1-3:3)......................................................... 177
3.4. Mk 15:16-37 (cf. Phlp 3:4-20)................................................................ 184
3.5. Mk 15:38-16:8 (cf. Phlp 3:21-4:23)....................................................... 190
General conclusions......................................................................................... 197
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Paul =
Romans 1
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures,
3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 who was declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; [even] Jesus Christ our Lord,
And now the key Greek (you know, the language Paul and "Mark" wrote in):

Romans 1:2

Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
3739 [e] ho which RelPro-ANS
4279 [e] proepēngeilato προεπηγγείλατο he promised beforehand, V-AIM-3S
1223 [e] dia διὰ through Prep
3588 [e] tōn τῶν the Art-GMP
4396 [e] prophētōn προφητῶν prophets N-GMP
846 [e] autou αὐτοῦ of him, PPro-GM3S
1722 [e] en ἐν in Prep
1124 [e] graphais γραφαῖς Scriptures N-DFP
40 [e] hagiais ἁγίαις holy, Adj-DFP

Paul's key points:
  • 1) Jesus predicted in The Jewish Bible (Scriptures)

    2) Jesus "made" (so to speak) son of God by the resurrection
Now on to GMark which looks like its biggest source is The Jewish Bible for a righteous search of the offending word and the context it is used in:

Mark 12
23 In the resurrection whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 Jesus said unto them, Is it not for this cause that ye err, that ye know not the scriptures, nor the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as angels in heaven.
Here we have almost the exact same offending word γραφὰς (here accusative instead of dative) and the same contexts (prediction/resurrection).


Mark 14
48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a robber, with swords and staves to seize me?
49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but [this is done] that the scriptures might be fulfilled.
50 And they all left him, and fled.
Here we have almost the exact same offending word γραφαί (here nominative instead of dative) and the more general context of prediction/Passion.

I find it (so to speak) reMarkable/predictable that the offending word used in a key phrase of Paul is only found in the Passion part of GMark's play considering that a base component of Gmark is The Jewish Bible (Scripture). Why would "Mark" (author) religiously avoid use of the word during the supposed Teaching & Healing Ministry of Jesus?


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The Parallels of PauLines

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Continuing with an examination of the parallels between Paul and GMark -

Let the Reader understand that my theory regarding a major theme of Paul is as follows:
  • 1) Historical witness promoted a Jesus based on Jesus' life.

    2) Jesus' life was based on The Jewish Bible and Jewish tradition.

    3) Paul saw this as having a significant physical connection to the past.

    4) Paul's revelation was that he would make a new spiritual connection between Judaism and Gentiles.
I think Paul's theme is best illustrated in Galatians 1. Here Paul contrasts his supposed spiritual "Gospel" for the Gentiles with the physical nature of what he sees as traditional Judaism. Physical language in blue and spiritual language in red.
1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead),

2 and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father:

5 to whom [be] the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;

7 which is not another [gospel] only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

9 As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.

10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? or am I striving to please men? if I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.

11 For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man.

12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in the Jews` religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it:

14 and I advanced in the Jews` religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, [even] from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,

16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord`s brother.

20 Now touching the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

21 Then I came unto the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

22 And I was still unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

23 but they only heard say, He that once persecuted us now preacheth the faith of which he once made havoc;

24 and they glorified God in me.
In summary and in order of importance I see Paul's major points above as:
  • 1) Paul has a mission from God to promote his vision of Jesus to Gentiles.

    2) Paul's source is revelation and not historical witness.

    3) Paul contrasts the physical nature of traditional Judaism with the spiritual nature of his Gospel to the Gentiles.
Note that Paul sometimes goes beyond just saying that the spiritual Gospel is only for Gentiles to implying/saying that the spiritual Gospel is for everyone including Jews. He thus steps beyond just using physical language to describe traditional Judaism as a contrast to the spiritual language used to describe his Gentile Gospel, to implicitly or even explicitly comparing the two with the physical Judaism as inferior or even evil and wicked.

In the context of HJ/MJ/AJ note the contrast above between the spiritual "brethren" who are "with Paul" and the physical brother of Jesus ("Lord") who is not with Paul. The overall context of Paul's contrast between the physical and spiritual regarding promotion of Jesus supports that Paul is referring to the physical brother of Jesus. Is this proof of HJ? No. Is it good evidence for HJ? No. Is it evidence for HJ? Yes. Ironically, Christians don't use this argument, which may be the best individual piece of evidence for HJ, because they do not accept that Paul thought historical witness to Jesus was an inferior source to revelation. Yet Paul's source of revelation is multiple explicit while a source of historical is implicit and less frequent.

Again, the above primarily shows that Paul contrasts the physical element of traditional Judaism with the spiritual element of his Gentile Gospel. The common element is the starting point of The Jewish Bible. The parallel to consider with GMark is "Mark's" (author) contrast between the physical and the spiritual in the context of religion.


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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by Aleph One »

That "Historical Commentary on the Gospel of Mark" site is incredible! I've been reading through it for the last couple days. Some of the parallels drawn to Paul, in particular though, just don't overly impress me. Sometimes it seems like if there's a Markan verse with nothing else going for it he's thrown in an offhand comment about a possible source from Paul.

One i remembered is for Mark 1:29-30 ("29: And immediately he left the synagogue, and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30: Now Simon's mother-in-law lay sick with a fever, and immediately they told him of her.").

His note is that: "v29-31: 1 Cor 9:5 implies that Peter was married. Given the numerous possible allusions to 1 Corinthinians in Mark, it seems possible that Mark deduced a mother-in-law from that Pauline letter rather than from some tradition." (http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark01.html)

Also I forgot to say, but to the OP: Excelent topic and thread! I've been wondering about the specifics of support for/against Mark using Paul several times lately, as it's usually discussed almost "as-in-passing", without details.

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The Source of The Messianic Secret - Revealed

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:KK, I've revealed to you how the game is played. Now go to work Pal. Your mission is to bring the Spiritual Gospel of Paul/"Mark" to the Gentile Germans.
Yes, I have learned more from you than from the Ehrmans and Carriers of this faithless generation. But first I want, that you sternly charge me and throw out me und say: See that you say nothing to anyone. ;)
JW:
As the Sheriff said to Lilli Von Schtupp in the classic Blazing Saddles, "Bitter baby".

Mark 8
29 And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
This is the point (so to speak) in the original Gospel narrative where "Mark's" (author) Jesus goes turnT, also known as the Recognition scene in Greek Tragedy

To summarize, "Mark's" Jesus orders his supposed disciples not to promote his life (Teaching & Healing Ministry per "Mark"). In contrast "Mark" lays an implication that Jesus' followers are supposed to promote his death, after he dies, with the party line =
  • [1] Suffering prophesied

    [2]Rejection by the Jewish leaders

    [3]Killed

    Rise after 3 days
As usual we can be certain that "Mark's" source here was not historical witness so that opens it up for a non-historical literary source =

1 Corinthians 2
1 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:

7 but we speak God`s wisdom in a mystery, [even] the [wisdom] that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:

8 [2]which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have [3]crucified the Lord of glory:

9 [1]but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And [which] entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
As always note the parallels here between Paul and "Mark" that CBS generally rejects as significant are significantly better than the parallels between The Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible that CBS sees as significant. Paul does not mention the resurrection here because that goes against the suffering theme and the revelation after the supposed historical theme.

My own historical explanation is that there was historical disciple witness to a Jesus' Teaching & Healing Ministry but it was still based in traditional Judaism. Paul exported Judaism to the Gentiles but emphasized his image of Jesus over traditional Judaism. Regarding Jesus' supposed life he could not compete with historical witness to Jesus so in a Pee Wee Herman type moment he claimed a policy of intentionally not talking about Jesus' life but only talking about Jesus' supposed death (he meant to do that) and its supposed meaning where he could not be so easily contradicted by historical witness. Paul/Fake Paul's commercial appeal was exporting supposed Judaism, but exorcising the tedious rituals, emphasizing life after death and going after a much larger customer base. The rest is fake history.

The related message of Paul's 1 Corinthians is that based on revelation from God Paul made a policy decision not to discuss Jesus' life but only his crucifixion and its meaning. "Mark" used this as a major theme showing his Jesus as forbidding everyone, including spirits (from Paul of course), from promoting his Teaching & Healing Ministry while it was supposedly happening, but implying that Jesus' passion (and resurrection) was to be promoted after it supposedly happened.

Sadly, CBS generally exorcises non-orthodox Christianity from consideration as possible source. But we have an entire early major Christian institution that did see Paul effectively as the source for the original Gospel narrative. Too easy for Solo to identify so bonus material for Solo. Mark well verse 3 above and tell me where it Ends in GMark. I tell you the truth, you than do not have to go all the way to Galilee to find the nearby "gar" you are looking for (it is not here in the body of this post).


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Re: The Source of The Messianic Secret - Revealed

Post by Leucius Charinus »

JoeWallack wrote:
Sadly, CBS generally exorcises non-orthodox Christianity from consideration as possible source.
That's too bad Joe. They seem to be missing the really interesting stories about people who literally confessed their love for Paul.
  • As for those (women) who appeal to the falsely written Acts of Paul in order to defend the right of women to teach and to baptize, let them know that the presbyter in Asia who produced this document, as if he could add something of his own to the prestige of Paul, was removed from his office after he had been convicted and had confessed that he had done it out of love for Paul.
But we have an entire early major Christian institution that did see Paul effectively as the source for the original Gospel narrative.

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Re: The Source of The Messianic Secret - Revealed

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:My own historical explanation is that there was historical disciple witness to a Jesus' Teaching & Healing Ministry but it was still based in traditional Judaism. Paul exported Judaism to the Gentiles but emphasized his image of Jesus over traditional Judaism. Regarding Jesus' supposed life he could not compete with historical witness to Jesus so in a Pee Wee Herman type moment he claimed a policy of intentionally not talking about Jesus' life but only talking about Jesus' supposed death (he meant to do that) and its supposed meaning where he could not be so easily contradicted by historical witness. Paul/Fake Paul's commercial appeal was exporting supposed Judaism, but exorcising the tedious rituals, emphasizing life after death and going after a much larger customer base. The rest is fake history.
I also suspect that there was at least a Teaching & Healing Ministry of Judeo-Christians. Mark rejects the idea that healing is one of the mighty works, which he values so highly.

Mark 6:5 And he could do no mighty work (δύναμιν) there, only that he laid his hands on a few sick people (ἀρρώστοις) and healed (ἐθεράπευσεν) them.

Mark 6:7,13 And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two ... And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick (ἀρρώστους) and healed (ἐθεράπευον) them.
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Re: OutSourcing Paul-Contract Labor of Love-Paul=Markan Sour

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Mark 16:8

Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
2532 [e] kai καὶ And Conj
1831 [e] exelthousai ἐξελθοῦσαι having gone out, V-APA-NFP
5343 [e] ephygon ἔφυγον they fled V-AIA-3P
575 [e] apo ἀπὸ from Prep
3588 [e] tou τοῦ the Art-GNS
3419 [e] mnēmeiou μνημείου, tomb. N-GNS
2192 [e] eichen εἶχεν possessed V-IIA-3S
1063 [e] gar γὰρ indeed Conj
846 [e] autas αὐτὰς them PPro-AF3P
5156 [e] tromos τρόμος trembling N-NMS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
1611 [e] ekstasis ἔκστασις· amazement, N-NFS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
3762 [e] oudeni οὐδενὶ to none Adj-DMS
3762 [e] ouden οὐδὲν nothing Adj-ANS
3004 [e] eipan εἶπαν· they spoke; V-AIA-3P
5399 [e] ephobounto ἐφοβοῦντοthey were afraid V-IIM/P-3P
1063 [e] gar γάρ. indeed. Conj

Verses:

1 Corinthians 2:3

Strong's Transliteration Greek EnglishMorphology
2504 [e] kagō κἀγὼ And I, PPro-N1S
1722 [e] en ἐν in Prep
769 [e] astheneia ἀσθενείᾳ weakness, N-DFS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
1722 [e] en ἐνin Prep
5401 [e] phobō φόβῳ fear, N-DMS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
1722 [e] en ἐν in Prep
5156 [e] tromō τρόμῳ trembling N-DMS
4183 [e] pollōπολλῷ much, Adj-DMS
1096 [e] egenomēn ἐγενόμην was V-AIM-1S
4314 [e] pros πρὸς with Prep
4771 [e] hymas ὑμᾶς, you. PPro-A2P

JW:
We have good parallels here between the ending of GMark and the beginning of Paul:
  • 1) Matching of two of the few descriptive words used = fear and trembling.

    2) General context of a messenger.

    3) And, as the Brits would say, "The cruncher", the more specific context of proclaiming/not proclaiming the supposed crucifixion and resurrection.

As always, Paul is the only known significant Christian author before "Mark" (author). And yet again we have major institutional support for Paul being a major source for GMark. Marcion, who had the first Canon (as confessed to us by the orthodox!) claimed that Paul was the authority for his anonymous Gospel.

Note that in the comparison above between the end of GMark and the beginning of Paul it is the supposed historical disciples who possess the fear and trembling. After the supposed historical (or at least "revealed") crucifixion and resurrection these possessions are transferred to Paul. "Mark" has a primary theme that live/historical Jesus destroyed the suffering of his followers but prophesied that his crucifixion and resurrection would create suffering of his followers. Paul, a self-appointed follower of crucified and resurrected Jesus, than describes himself as suffering because of Jesus' supposed crucifixion and resurrection and presents himself as a model for the suffering of his followers (just as "Mark's" Jesus presents himself as a model for his followers).

Also note the stylish rhetoric by Paul, lost in translation, "phobo and tromo" (while ironically claiming that he is weak in rhetoric).

Word.


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