Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 9536
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Giuseppe »

We don't even know who the author was, how can we possibly know what he thought.
By this sound principle, you can put to silence the entire NT (except, perhaps, the letters of Paul) and proclaim the dogma of absolute agnosticism on the entire matter.

And no, I (and you) have to decide. Why does ''Paltos king of the world'' appear in that gnostic text?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13731
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Secret Alias »

By this sound principle, you can put to silence the entire NT
So you think that New Testament scholarship employs a lot of psychological interpretation of what was in the writer's mind? What kind of books are you reading? The criticism most often leveled at the NT writings is that they don't try hard enough to go beyond what is actually written - i.e. they take the texts at face value, as if the text = historical fact.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13731
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Secret Alias »

You have to learn how to distinguish between good arguments, not so good arguments and bad arguments. I think it would help your development as a NT critic.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 9536
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Giuseppe »

So according to your sound criticism etc, it is a fact that the mandean author was based on the Gospel tradition.

I can agree with that.

But if the same Mandean author introduced the expression ''king of this world'' referred to Pilate (and note I am conceding even that Paltos = Pilate), then that strange expression (and so reminiscent of all the mythicist discussion about the spiritual nature of the ''rulers of this age'') for you is evidence of... ...of nothing!

I can't think so, frankly. You have to list at least which possible explanations are on the table. In some way, a banal Roman governor is became just the ''Kosmocrator'', the ''God of this World'', the Jewish God. And you, with all your immense knowledge, have no idea at all about the reason why this is happened.

Is THIS what you are saying?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13731
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Secret Alias »

it is a fact that the mandean author was based on the Gospel tradition.
I don't know the relationship. Sometimes it's okay to just say 'I don't know.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 9536
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Giuseppe »

Fortunately, they are not only the Mandeans to see Pilate as the same Creator God or Demiurge.

So Irenaeus 1.25.6 :

. Others of them employ outward marks, branding their disciples inside the lobe of the right ear. From among these also arose Marcellina, who came to Rome under [the episcopate of] Anicetus, and, holding these doctrines, she led multitudes astray. They style themselves Gnostics. They also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles.
Pilate is the Demiurge insofar he created (and naturally crucified) an earthly avatar of the celestial Christ.

Clearly for the literalist Irenaeus that avatar was not the "real" Jesus adored by the proto-Catholics but was only a material painting.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 9536
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Giuseppe »

And still Hippolytus, 7:20 :

And they make counterfeit images of Christ, alleging that these were in existence at the time during which our Lord was on earth, and that they were fashioned by Pilate.
That a so great delusion to think that Pilate was - according to these Gnostics (as interpreted by thee fool proto-Catholic apologists) - not a Governor and not even the Creator God, but a mere artist and a painter!!!

If Pilate=Demiurge, then Pilate crucified a lot of human Christ-parodies created by himself. Said in other terms, the Demiurge was able to crucify on the earth only earthly avatars of the cosmic Christ. But not Christ himself. (Is this why the "real" Christ was crucified in heaven?)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13731
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Secret Alias »

This is the worst kind of argumentation. No one reads the statement regarding the Carpocratians in this way.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 9536
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Giuseppe »

Are not you to say that the "potter" is the Demiurge?

Matthew 27:9-10 New International Version (NIV)
9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”[a]


And is not the "carpenter" a Demiurge, too?

So with identical probability the "painter" is a Demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 13731
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Why Pilate? Because of "Paltos": the demiurge

Post by Secret Alias »

I give up
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Post Reply