Paul only / Damascus chronology

[gryan]

Hi, I'm new here. I came to discuss a question of Pauline chronology.

Paul mentions Damascus twice. Once in Galatians 1:13-17:

A. 13For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

B. 15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles,

C. I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia,

D. and returned again to Damascus.


Paul also mentions Damascus in 1 Corinthians 11:30 f

A. 30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas was guarding the city of Damascus in order to seize me, 33but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands.

B. 1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.



If I rely on Paul as my primary source and doubt Acts, I am thinking I could reasonably conjecture that Paul was kicked out of Damascus by the governor because he was persecuting Christians, and thus generally being disorderly (Contra Acts: kicked out for preaching Christ). After he was kicked out of Damascus, he received a revelation and converted. Then he went to Arabia. Then he "returned again" to Damascus, this time, not as a persecutor, but as a convert to the way of Christ.

This chronology would provide a better explanation for the order of storytelling in 2 Corinthians: A. he was kicked out of Damascus, then, soon after that, B. he had the revelation. The chronology would also allow for the revelation of the third heaven/ the thorn/ and the power in weakness in 2 Corinthians to be a more detailed elaboration of his conversation/revelation that he reports in Galatians.

Your thoughts?

[Michael BG]

Hi, I'm new here. I came to discuss a question of Pauline chronology.

Hello Gryan and welcome. Doubting Acts is always a good thing.

Your theory makes sense. It is a shame that Paul doesn’t talk about his time in Arabia more.

[gryan]

It is a shame that Paul doesn’t talk about his time in Arabia more.

Hi Michael,

I too wonder about what happened in Arabia, the land of Mt. Sinai (Gal. 4:25). Did he go there to reflect on the new revelation in relation to the revelation given to Moses as James Tabor suggests? Don't know.

In my experience, it takes some time sort through the religious significance of an altered state of consciousness such as an ascent to the third heaven, which, according to Segal, fits a Jewish model of mystical realization.

[andrewcriddle]

2 Corinthians 11 is about God helping and sustaining Paul in his Christian ministry despite Paul's weakness.
It is unlikely Paul would include here a misadventure from his pre-Christian days.

Andrew Criddle

[gryan]

Further reflection on the incident according to Acts 9:

23When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him (Saul), 24but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night in order to kill him, 25but his (Saul's) disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall lowering him in a basket.

I want to give Acts as much credit as possible. I would like it to be true that it was the disciples of Jesus (Contra Acts: "disciples of Saul") who lowered Saul in a basket, and I'll tell you why. Could it be that they helped Saul escape even though he was persecuting them? That would be ethically consistent of them, as disciples of Jesus, if they loved Saul when he was still an enemy! And it would have been a powerful witness.

[gryan]

2 Corinthians 11 is about God helping and sustaining Paul in his Christian ministry despite Paul's weakness.
It is unlikely Paul would include here a misadventure from his pre-Christian days.

Andrew Criddle

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your comment.

I'd like to argue with your point. Hope that's ok. If your account were so, why the emphasis on how he is not lying? I think it is likely the emphasis on not lying extends forward to the Third heaven incident, which could be called an exaggeration, as it puts all the emphasis on direct revelation from Christ Jesus, not on human influence of the apostles, the so called pillars. We see the emphasis on not lying in Galatians too, and in Galatians in has to do with who is the real source of his apostolate, the pillars or Jesus. (Gal. 1:20) I think when he said he was not lying, he was thinking of the third heaven/thorn/power in weakness revelation. And since he was thinking of that, he was also thinking of what happened just prior, the Damascus incident.

On the theme of weakness: earlier he made the claim, "Who is weak and I am not weak, who is caused to stumble and I do not burn?" In my view, that sets the stage for interpreting the "power in weakness" revelation. The basket incident does suggest a sort of weakness, as you said, dependence on God. I like that point. It is a physical dependence on the basket and the people holding the line that represents God's help in time of need.

But I think the basket incident and the third heaven ascent happened when he was still an enemy of the Way. I don't think Saul really became a follower of Jesus until he heard the words, "my grace is sufficient, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Your thoughts?

[Jax]

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

2 Corinthians 11:30-33

I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they praised God because of me.

Galatians 1:11-24

Time for some history!

From 85 to 63 BCE king Aretas III had control of Damascus except for three years when from 72 to 69 BCE Damascus was under the control of Tigranes II of Armenia who invaded the area filling the power vacuum of the now defunct Seleucid empire.

Arabia was also everything east as well as south east of the Levant back then. This included all of the Arabian peninsula.

Did Paul return to Damascus with Tigranes II from east Arabia only to have to escape the wrath of Aretas III three years later when Tigranes II lost control of the city forcing Paul to sneak out of the city to then "go up to Jerusalem" and then beet feet north to first Syria and then Cilicia?

Food for thought.

[Jax]

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

2 Corinthians 11:30-33

I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they praised God because of me.

Galatians 1:11-24

Time for some history!

From 85 to 63 BCE king Aretas III had control of Damascus except for three years when from 72 to 69 BCE Damascus was under the control of Tigranes II of Armenia who invaded the area filling the power vacuum of the now defunct Seleucid empire.

Arabia was also everything east as well as south east of the Levant back then. This included all of the Arabian peninsula.

Did Paul return to Damascus with Tigranes II from east Arabia only to have to escape the wrath of Aretas III three years later when Tigranes II lost control of the city forcing Paul to sneak out of the city to then "go up to Jerusalem" and then beet feet north to first Syria and then Cilicia?

Food for thought.

At least the Beet Feet.

[arnoldo]

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

2 Corinthians 11:30-33

I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they praised God because of me.

Galatians 1:11-24

Time for some history!

From 85 to 63 BCE king Aretas III had control of Damascus except for three years when from 72 to 69 BCE Damascus was under the control of Tigranes II of Armenia who invaded the area filling the power vacuum of the now defunct Seleucid empire.

Arabia was also everything east as well as south east of the Levant back then. This included all of the Arabian peninsula.

Did Paul return to Damascus with Tigranes II from east Arabia only to have to escape the wrath of Aretas III three years later when Tigranes II lost control of the city forcing Paul to sneak out of the city to then "go up to Jerusalem" and then beet feet north to first Syria and then Cilicia?

Food for thought.

This argument seems to be along the lines of Jerome Murphy-O'Connor's chronology in Paul: A Critical Life.

[gryan]

This argument seems to be along the lines of Jerome Murphy-O'Connor's chronology in Paul: A Critical Life.

On history as recorded outside the writings of the New Testament:

"Aretas IV Philopatris (Arabic: حارثة الرابع‎ Ḥāritat in Nabataean)[1] was the King of the Nabataeans from roughly 9 BC to 40 AD."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretas_IV_Philopatris

To Arnoldo: This is the historical Aretas connection made by Crossen in his book on archeology and history relevant to study of the life and times of Paul. It was Crossen's book that got me into this type of inquiry in the first place. I think Crossen and Murphy-O'Conner are pretty much on the same page.

To Jax: I accept Crossen's view that the historical Aretas in question would date Paul's Damascus story to around CE 40.