Identities Verification.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by gryan »

Trees of Life wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:58 am
Stefan Kristensen wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:24 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcpz6eJ72xw
Fine song, though.
:)
Yes, I like the harmonies.
perseusomega9
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by perseusomega9 »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:12 am There ya go. :D

"This is my sister Mary, and this is my other sister Mary."
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perseusomega9
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by perseusomega9 »

it just needs repeating
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

perseusomega9 wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:53 pm it just needs repeating

Did I ever tell you that Mrs. McCave
Had twenty-three sons and she named them all Dave?

— Theodore Geisel (also known as Dr. Seuss).

hakeem
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by hakeem »

Trees of Life wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:13 pm Coexisting Gospel Editions Corollary.

Expecting to be harried by opposing religious, governmental and commercial hierarchies, the Gospel was written circumspectly in relation to certain identities being known in certitude to the general public, to avoid christian initiates being charged with bringing harm upon their brethren.

These precautionary acts throughout the early Christian writings furnish the corollary that published editions of those Gospel writings coexisted with the identities being protected.
What you say makes absolutely no sense. An anonymous Gospel which identifies the names of the Apostles, their parents, where they lived, their occupation and their teachings about Jesus does not protect them from harm at all.

Your suggestion is total nonsense.

Look at gMatthew 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Whether or not the Gospels were anonymous the identities of the supposed apostles were exposed in the very writings to those who could do them harm.

The true authors and date of authorship of the Gospels and other NT writings were omitted solely for deception. If the actual authors and date of authorship were known then it would be quickly realised that the NT was total fiction with respect to the Galileans and Paul.
Trees of Life
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by Trees of Life »

hakeem wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:02 pm
Trees of Life wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:13 pm Coexisting Gospel Editions Corollary.

Expecting to be harried by opposing religious, governmental and commercial hierarchies, the Gospel was written circumspectly in relation to certain identities being known in certitude to the general public, to avoid christian initiates being charged with bringing harm upon their brethren.

These precautionary acts throughout the early Christian writings furnish the corollary that published editions of those Gospel writings coexisted with the identities being protected.
What you say makes absolutely no sense. An anonymous Gospel which identifies the names of the Apostles, their parents, where they lived, their occupation and their teachings about Jesus does not protect them from harm at all.

Your suggestion is total nonsense.

Look at gMatthew 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Whether or not the Gospels were anonymous the identities of the supposed apostles were exposed in the very writings to those who could do them harm.

The true authors and date of authorship of the Gospels and other NT writings were omitted solely for deception. If the actual authors and date of authorship were known then it would be quickly realised that the NT was total fiction with respect to the Galileans and Paul.

Look at gMatthew 10.

Those names are obscure for positive identification by the local population of the time, except for Judas Iscariot who was dead in 33 CE.

James and John may have a Greek (Zebedee) father. Simon's one of hundreds of thousands of Canaanites. James of Alphaeus, (not son of) just of, could be brother, father, cousin, uncle... . Judas (of Alphaeus)... not named. Some kind of son (bar, Heb.) of Tholomew. Simon... or is his name Peter? Matthew who used to be a publican from somewhere. Labbaeus whose surname was Thaddaeus, separate from Judas of Alphaeus being not named. Which Philip? Thomas from somewhere. Which Andrew? — Brother of Simon? or of Peter?

'Whether or not the Gospels were anonymous the identities of the supposed apostles were exposed in the very writings to those who could do them harm' — hakeem

Easily refuted.
hakeem
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by hakeem »

Trees of Life wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:36 pm
hakeem wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:02 pm
Trees of Life wrote: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:13 pm Coexisting Gospel Editions Corollary.

Expecting to be harried by opposing religious, governmental and commercial hierarchies, the Gospel was written circumspectly in relation to certain identities being known in certitude to the general public, to avoid christian initiates being charged with bringing harm upon their brethren.

These precautionary acts throughout the early Christian writings furnish the corollary that published editions of those Gospel writings coexisted with the identities being protected.
What you say makes absolutely no sense. An anonymous Gospel which identifies the names of the Apostles, their parents, where they lived, their occupation and their teachings about Jesus does not protect them from harm at all.

Your suggestion is total nonsense.

Look at gMatthew 10
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Whether or not the Gospels were anonymous the identities of the supposed apostles were exposed in the very writings to those who could do them harm.

The true authors and date of authorship of the Gospels and other NT writings were omitted solely for deception. If the actual authors and date of authorship were known then it would be quickly realised that the NT was total fiction with respect to the Galileans and Paul.

Look at gMatthew 10.

Those names are obscure for positive identification by the local population of the time, except for Judas Iscariot who was dead in 33 CE.

James and John may have a Greek (Zebedee) father. Simon's one of hundreds of thousands of Canaanites. James of Alphaeus, (not son of) just of, could be brother, father, cousin, uncle... . Judas (of Alphaeus)... not named. Some kind of son (bar, Heb.) of Tholomew. Simon... or is his name Peter? Matthew who used to be a publican from somewhere. Labbaeus whose surname was Thaddaeus, separate from Judas of Alphaeus being not named. Which Philip? Thomas from somewhere. Which Andrew? — Brother of Simon? or of Peter?

'Whether or not the Gospels were anonymous the identities of the supposed apostles were exposed in the very writings to those who could do them harm' — hakeem

Easily refuted.
Again, what you say is just total nonsense.

The writings of Josephus alone exposes your absurdity. Many characters in the writings of Josephus are identified simply by naming their siblings, parents or where they lived.


Based on your flawed reasoning no-one would be able to identify Jesus the son of Sapphias or Jesus the son of Ananus in the time of Josephus as found in his writings.
gryan
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by gryan »

Pondering this thread has been very useful and enjoyable. The writing is excellent. Although the "identities" verification for the ambiguous NT Jameses presented above by "Trees of Life" is remarkable it its detail and care, I am not convinced of the proposed methods.

My own methods are different-- more probabilistic, based on evidence any ordinary reader of the Greek NT should be able to weigh. The results of my investigation are very different too (although perhaps equally outside the mainstream):

1) I confess this might be a bias of the Protestant (As opposed to the Catholic) reading of Galatians and the Gospels, but I start with the assumption that "James, the Lord's brother" in Galatians is--in the uterine sense of the word "brother"--one of the brothers and sisters of Mary the mother of Jesus in GMark.

2) Within the narrative flow of Luke-Acts, James son of Alphaeus is the most likely speaker at the Jerusalem Conference. This, given that two "James" are named explicitly in the list of the 12. After the beheading of "James" the brother of "John" who I take to be "James" of the brothers Zebedee, James son of Alphaeus is the only explicitly named "James" left.

3) The narrative flow of Galatians works better if "James, the Lord's brother" is understood, not as the "James" of the "esteemed pillars" ("James, Cephas, and John"); but rather as the "James" in the phrase, "men from James" (understood as being the "false brothers" who put pressure on the pillars for Titus to be circumcised).

The work continues.
cora
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by cora »

I don't know who you are, but you obviously think everything is real. The gospels were written between 170 and 185 by the church of rome and are fake/false. Invented. There was no Christ (I suppose that means messiah?). There were no Christians. There was no Jesus. It is an invented story. There was no church. The church was in rome. There was no bishop, bishops appeared around 130 in the church. There was no resurrection of course. There were no 12 disciples. I don't know if this helps.

Cora
Trees of Life
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Re: Identities Verification.

Post by Trees of Life »

Discerning Who Nathanael Was

The name Nathanael substitutes for particular sect identities because if their details and status were known, opponents could perceive precisely who they and others were and without any irregularity, target them.

Nathanael was a substitute name for the apostles Simon of Cana in John 21, and for Bartholomew in John 1. Nathanael also doubled for Bartholomew in the Epistula Apostolorum.

James son of Alphaeus/James the Less/'James brother of John' having been 'killed by sword'— Acts 12:2, circa A.D. 44—wasn't alive at the time of its composition and so to keep his status and that of the sect indistinct, Nathanael for Bartholomew along with Cephas for Peter are added to number twelve Apostles.
At the time of the composition, the ten living eyewitnesses of the twelve apostles writing were: John, Thomas, Peter, Andrew, James son of Zebedee, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, and Nathanael named again as Bartholomew, Judas son of Alphaeus, Zelotes/Simon, and Peter named again as Cephas.
Not included as living eyewitnesses of the twelve are Matthias, not being an eyewitness, and James son of Alphaeus/James the Less/'James brother of John', who had been killed by sword, as recorded in Acts 12:2.

Epistula Apostolorum:

'We, John, Thomas, Peter, Andrew, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Nathanael, Judas, Zelotes, and Cephas, write unto the churches of the east and the west, of the north and the south, recounting and proclaiming unto you that which concerneth our Lord Jesus Christ: as we have, written according to as we have seen and heard and touched him, after that he was risen from the dead: and how that he revealed unto us things mighty and wonderful and true.'

In concordance with the edition of The teaching of the Twelve Apostles:

'Behold ye sons and daughters of the Church, in the name of our Lord Jesus the Christ, John, Matthew, Peter, and Philip, and Andrew, and Simeon, and James, and Jude the son of James; with Nathanael, and Thomas and Bartholomew and Matthias, all of us gathered together by command of our Lord Jesus the Christ our Saviour.'

As was the practice when lists of the apostles were composed, the identities of the apostles are indistinct and have been merged in the text to prevent them from being known outright, in order to confound enemies of the sect, so that the apostles by not having their names published outright, are shielded from being targeted.

https://archive.org/details/didascaliaa ... ew=theater

The Apostolic Constitutions:

'These are the Canons of our Fathers the Holy Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, which they appointed in the Churches.
Rejoice, O our sons and daughters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, said John and Matthew, and Peter, and Andrew, Philip and Simon, James and Nathanael, Thomas and Cephas, Bartholomew, and Judas the brother of James'.

https://archive.org/details/apostolical ... ew=theater

The concept of having the name Nathanael in text to protect sect identities, is in line with him being an angel, for the sixth angel created was Nathanael, in countenancing the reason for the choice of name—The Questions of Bartholomew.
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