Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

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davidmartin
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

Post by davidmartin »

Just a few extra thoughts
I read again the references to maiming you mentioned and i agree there's a connection
But to me that only shows where Mark/Matthew may have got the idea from

I've also tried to find other references to hand/foot replacement and can't find them yet, none of the other versions of the Thomas saying have these lines
There is plenty about the whole body being replaced by the new spiritual body which i think is what Thomas might mean but nothing limb specific
There's that quote from the Naassenes of the two identical statues one representing earthly man and the other the heavenly man so even 'gnostics' were into it, although these Naassenes seem to use Paul as a source
Thomas seems to be saying 'become Christ' at this point

Anyway i do have something to add here
I want to be crystal clear about what the argument is here. I am not suggesting that the sequence of sayings in Matthew 18.1-11 = Mark 9.33-50 makes much more sense, if any, than the sequence of sayings in Thomas 22.1-7. I have commented before on how artificial the synoptic sequence here actually is. But it is almost universally acknowledged that the synoptic sayings in this section are connected by catchword: in Mark 9.33-50, for example, "child" leads to "little one," which appears in a saying about "stumbling," which is also found in the saying about eyes and hands and feet, a saying which includes the image of "fire," which in turn leads to the saying about "salting" with fire, and salt is therefore the topic of the last saying in the collection. Thematically some of these connections are just as jarring as Thomas adding hands, feet, and eyes to the male and female saying, but logistically we can see that they are connected by catchword.

Is there a similar progression to the sayings in Thomas 22.1-7? I would love to see it, because at the moment it looks to me like the only reason Thomas has a saying about eyes and hands and feet at this point is because Matthew and Mark have a saying about eyes and hands and feet at this point. I am more than willing to be persuaded otherwise, but that is how it appears to me here and now.
There is a progression in Thomas where it says at the beginning of 22 "Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."
This is the same progression that's found in Mark, sort of, then there's a few catchword sayings about eyes that follow

But i think i said before there's no real convincing proof except if hell itself can be shown to be an offshoot doctrine shoe horned in which i recon is what happened (Ebionites finger prints all over it!)
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

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davidmartin wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:35 amI've also tried to find other references to hand/foot replacement and can't find them yet, none of the other versions of the Thomas saying have these lines
There is plenty about the whole body being replaced by the new spiritual body which i think is what Thomas might mean but nothing limb specific
There's that quote from the Naassenes of the two identical statues one representing earthly man and the other the heavenly man so even 'gnostics' were into it, although these Naassenes seem to use Paul as a source
Thomas seems to be saying 'become Christ' at this point
What do you think of the interpretation floated earlier in this thread, the one which I promised to give due consideration?
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:53 am The end? The end is the summary, just like the beginning to logion 47: no one can serve two masters.
Martijn, you have really impressed me whit the quote above:

Reading again the Logion 47:

52 [47]. Jesus says: "It is not possible for a man to ride two horses, nor to draw two bows. And it is not possible for a servant to serve two masters: otherwise he will honour the one and the other will treat him harshly! Never does a man drink old wine and desire at the same instant to drink new wine; new wine is not poured into old wine-skins, in case they should burst, and old wine is not poured into new wine-skins, in case it should be spoiled. An old piece of cloth is not sown onto a new garment, for a tear would result."

...I wonder now if the triumphal entry of Jesus riding two horses (doesn't he?) may represent an implicit polemic against Thomas:

They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on.

(Matthew 21:7)

Hence, if the two beasts represent OT and NT testament, in other terms, the typical Marcionite antithesis, then there Matthew and Luke are replying against Thomas and more generally against Marcion and the anti-demiurgists.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:24 am
mlinssen wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:53 am The end? The end is the summary, just like the beginning to logion 47: no one can serve two masters.
Martijn, you have really impressed me whit the quote above:

Reading again the Logion 47:

52 [47]. Jesus says: "It is not possible for a man to ride two horses, nor to draw two bows. And it is not possible for a servant to serve two masters: otherwise he will honour the one and the other will treat him harshly! Never does a man drink old wine and desire at the same instant to drink new wine; new wine is not poured into old wine-skins, in case they should burst, and old wine is not poured into new wine-skins, in case it should be spoiled. An old piece of cloth is not sown onto a new garment, for a tear would result."

...I wonder now if the triumphal entry of Jesus riding two horses (doesn't he?) may represent an implicit polemic against Thomas:

They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on.

(Matthew 21:7)

Hence, if the two beasts represent OT and NT testament, in other terms, the typical Marcionite antithesis, then there Matthew and Luke are replying against Thomas and more generally against Marcion and the anti-demiurgists.
Hot damn! Giuseppe!!! Holy mackerel LOL - now that would also explain why they ditch that first part, to use it separately in Luke (16:13) and Matthew (6:24), while they copy the remainder in Luke 5:36-49 and Matthew 9:16-17

That would be food for Matthew indeed, Luke wouldn't care
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

Post by davidmartin »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:10 am
davidmartin wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:35 amI've also tried to find other references to hand/foot replacement and can't find them yet, none of the other versions of the Thomas saying have these lines
There is plenty about the whole body being replaced by the new spiritual body which i think is what Thomas might mean but nothing limb specific
There's that quote from the Naassenes of the two identical statues one representing earthly man and the other the heavenly man so even 'gnostics' were into it, although these Naassenes seem to use Paul as a source
Thomas seems to be saying 'become Christ' at this point
What do you think of the interpretation floated earlier in this thread, the one which I promised to give due consideration?
Ben, i like his take on it its very well written
The GoT has it's fans outside of Christianity that's for sure. I wonder what Jews make of it? I've seen Buddhists and assorted new agers in the pro-Thomas camp.
It's so ironic that's it's Christians that slate it, sometimes in strong language - when it's the words of their own teacher in large part the same as the gospels they do accept. The you-tube comments are pretty informative.
I find it hard to believe if it was simply culled from the gospels it could have this effect. It does have something going for it

And it's not alien to the canonical gospels either, not when you read in John that Jesus has the 'words of life'
So then, he has a teaching, he has words? (don't tell that to the author of Hebrews!)
He is called The Word so hardly a shock, then his teachings turn up more or less unfiltered and people don't believe it except a few (as Jesus predicts himself lol)
That's the trouble with Christian doctrine, it doesn't require Jesus to have had any teaching at all and certainly not a salvific one, that's why i like the Odes because they present every aspect of him as salvific from words, actions, birth, death its all the same in the Odes so actually it gets around the problem better than the doctrines that came later, at least thats how it seems to me anyway
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidmartin wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:26 pmI find it hard to believe if it was simply culled from the gospels it could have this effect.
It depends on what you mean by "culled." If you mean that one text is merely extracting from another, then I agree, with caveats (the extracts have to be fair, for example); but... that is obviously not the case with Thomas and the synoptics (in whichever way you wish the dependence to flow). If, however, "culled" can include reinterpretation, then I disagree fundamentally, since it has happened hundreds if not thousands of times that a text which reinterprets another is soundly rejected by adherents to the original text. If you mean something in the middle, I would have to have more information.
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:52 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:24 pmThe "Jesus" in question would have been Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous (in Greek, of course), and the Hebrew hero would have been Yeshua
As I have explained before (you must have forgotten), Jesus and Yeshua are the same name. There is no difference in the Hebrew, the Greek, or the Latin of the period; they are different in English, and that phenomenon has a long, long history. But I am not concerned with the English, except insofar as it is necessary to communicate, because English is not the language in which the relevant texts were penned.
No, I haven't forgotten. I think Joshua is an unhelpful rendition of Yeshua. And, to better reflect the transliterations in antiquity, Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus], is a better reflection of the then transliteration of Yeshua into Greek, the then main language of early Christianity, and might better help understand what transitions might have been reflected in the texts. I don't think 'Joshua' & 'Jesus' reflect who (and perhaps what) was being referred to.

I think understanding the 'proximity' of Yeshua and Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] better reflects what you're trying to uncover in your subsequent post in this thread - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 99#p111899 - though I'm not sure that thread clarifies whether the nomina sacra in question might have been applied either to the Hebrew or LXX Yesua / Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] or to a notion of the Christian Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] - it's a long post.

Martijn's point about the nomina sacra in the Gospel of Thomas being non-specific and not necessarily or even hardly being a rendition or a reflection of the Christian Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] seems to be a pertinent one.
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

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MrMacSon wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:21 pmI think Joshua is an unhelpful rendition of Yeshua.
It certainly is. I wish the various versions were simpler in the respect; unfortunately, they are not.
And, to better reflect the transliterations in antiquity, Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus], is a better reflection of the then transliteration of Yeshua into Greek, the then main language of early Christianity, and might better help understand what transitions might have been reflected in the texts.
That is also true.

The main point I wish to convey is that, when one encounters the name Jesus or the name Joshua in the English translation of an ancient text, be it originally in Hebrew, in Greek, or even in Latin, those two are nearly always the same name in the text itself (I believe there are some late Latin manuscripts which distinguish, but they are exceptions to the overwhelming rule), even if the English translation unhelpfully obscures that fact.

So, for example, when Josephus refers to several separate individuals (I forget exactly how many) as being named Jesus before the putative time when Jesus was born, the translation could just as aptly have Joshua instead, because those men bear both the same name as the Christian savior and the same name as the Hebrew successor to Moses. Or, when Philo famously (for this forum, anyway) discusses Joshua the High Priest from the book of Zechariah, that priest's name could just as easily be rendered as Jesus. I just want to make sure we all understand that, because not to understand it leads to confusion. ("Jesus?? I thought you said we were talking about Joshua!!")
I think understanding the 'proximity' of Yeshua and Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] better reflects what you're trying to uncover in your subsequent post in this thread - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 99#p111899 - though I'm not sure that thread clarifies whether the nomina sacra in question might have been applied either to the Hebrew or LXX Yesua / Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] or to a notion of the Christian Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] - it's a long post.
I established that, in Christian manuscripts (Greek ones, whether of the Old or of the New Testament), the names both of Jesus the Christian savior and of Joshua the Hebrew hero were often rendered as nomina sacra.
Martijn's point about the nomina sacra in the Gospel of Thomas being non-specific and not necessarily or even hardly being a rendition or a reflection of the Christian Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] seems to be a pertinent one.
In manuscript after Christian Greek manuscript, many of them dating to about the same time as the Greek fragments of Thomas, a short list of words (including, but not limited to: God, Savior, Jesus, Lord, Man, and Father) are generally abbreviated down to 2 or 3 letters bearing an overstroke. In the Greek fragments of Thomas themselves, four of those words happen to appear (God, Jesus, Man, and Father), and they are abbreviated down to 2 or 3 letters bearing an overstroke. I included Jesus on this list of four words because it is part of the longer list to which Man, Father, and God belong in the other manuscripts; if it does not belong to that list in the single case of Thomas, why not? What is your explanation for the phenomenon?
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:08 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:21 pmI think Joshua is an unhelpful rendition of Yeshua.
It certainly is. I wish the various versions were simpler in the respect; unfortunately, they are not.

And, to better reflect the transliterations in antiquity, Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus], is a better reflection of the then transliteration of Yeshua into Greek, the then main language of early Christianity, and might better help understand what transitions might have been reflected in the texts.
That is also true.

The main point I wish to convey is that, when one encounters the name Jesus or the name Joshua in the English translation of an ancient text, be it originally in Hebrew, in Greek, or even in Latin, those two are nearly always the same name in the text itself (I believe there are some late Latin manuscripts which distinguish, but they are exceptions to the overwhelming rule), even if the English translation unhelpfully obscures that fact.

So, for example, when Josephus refers to several separate individuals (I forget exactly how many) as being named Jesus before the putative time when Jesus was born, the translation could just as aptly have Joshua instead, because those men bear both the same name as the Christian savior and the same name as the Hebrew successor to Moses. Or, when Philo famously (for this forum, anyway) discusses Joshua the High Priest from the book of Zechariah, that priest's name could just as easily be rendered as Jesus. I just want to make sure we all understand that, because not to understand it leads to confusion. ("Jesus?? I thought you said we were talking about Joshua!!")
I fully agree.

I would propose when talking about a character in the Hebrew Bible with the name Joshua/Yeshua (there are, after all, ten of them) that Yeshua is used (+/- the Hebrew version or the name, יֵשׁוּעַ‎ ); or, if from or in relation to the LXX, with the Greek ie. Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous, maybe even with the Greek first eg. Ἰησοῦς/Iēsous, Yeshua [Jesus] - ie. three or four names (though probably too unwieldy for most people).

ie. dual-name these characters with two translations/transliterations (or more).

Using and modifying a sentence from your reply -

"Or, when Philo famously (for this forum, anyway) discusses Joshua Yeshua the High Priest, from the book of Zechariah [and b/c almost certainly from a Greek version such as the LXX], that priest's name could just as easily be rendered as Jesus Iēsous / Ἰησοῦς Yeshua." [edited since first posting to strikeout Yeshua and to reverse order of Ἰησοῦς and Iēsous]

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:08 pm
I think understanding the 'proximity' of Yeshua and Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] better reflects what you're trying to uncover in your subsequent post in this thread - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 99#p111899 - though I'm not sure that thread clarifies whether the nomina sacra in question might have been applied either to the Hebrew or LXX Yeshua / Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] or to a notion of the Christian Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] - it's a long post.
I established that, in Christian manuscripts (Greek ones, whether of the Old or of the New Testament), the names both of [ Ἰησοῦς/Iēsous [Jesus]] the Christian savior and of Joshua Yeshua /Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous] the Hebrew hero were often rendered as nomina sacra.
Cheers. So, it would be the use of Greek that has given rise to the use of nomina sacra?
  • and the [use of the] Coptic that has given rise to the superlinear/s ??

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:08 pm
Martijn's point about the nomina sacra in the Gospel of Thomas being non-specific and not necessarily or even hardly being a rendition or a reflection of the Christian Ἰησοῦς, / Iēsous [Jesus] seems to be a pertinent one.
In manuscript after Christian Greek manuscript, many of them dating to about the same time as the Greek fragments of Thomas, a short list of words (including, but not limited to: God, Savior, Jesus, Lord, Man, and Father) are generally abbreviated down to 2 or 3 letters bearing an overstroke.
OK, cheers.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:08 pm In the Greek fragments of Thomas themselves, four of those words happen to appear (God, Jesus, Man, and Father), and they are abbreviated down to 2 or 3 letters bearing an overstroke. I included Jesus on this list of four words because it is part of the longer list to which Man, Father, and God belong in the other manuscripts; if it does not belong to that list in the single case of Thomas, why not? What is your explanation for the phenomenon?
OK. Good question/s. One/s I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer, but one/s I'd like to explore (and maybe eventually be able to answer or at least provide commentary about or for).
  • To start that discussion: more questions (somewhat rhetorically, of course) -
    • How much of the interchangeability of those words that came to be represented by nomina sacra - God, Lord, (LORD?), Father, Saviour, Man, and Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous] - might derive from Second Temple Judaism and how much subsequently, ie. after the Fall of the Temple or in the so-called Inter-Testamentary Period?? I have always been struck by the interchangeability of words for entities or characters in each of the chapters of the book of Zechariah: in the same chapter the entity who appeared in a dream of vision and is said to speak to/with Zechariah is said to be, for example: a man, an angel and Lord, (+/- other terms)
    • How sure can we be Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous] (or any other entity eg. G_d, Lord, Saviour, Man) is represented or meant by some of the nomina sacra in some of these texts? Can we say Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous/Jesus] - or God, Lord, Saviour, Man, etc., - is more likely in some texts than others?
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Re: Significance of the Gospel of Thomas if the Canonical Gospels are late?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:17 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:08 pmI established that, in Christian manuscripts (Greek ones, whether of the Old or of the New Testament), the names both of [ Ἰησοῦς/Iēsous [Jesus]] the Christian savior and of Joshua Yeshua /Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous] the Hebrew hero were often rendered as nomina sacra.
Cheers. So, it would be the use of Greek that has given rise to the use of nomina sacra?
  • and the [use of the] Coptic that has given rise to the superlinear/s ??
Well, the origins of the nomina sacra are debated. But they are practically ubiquitous throughout the Greek manuscripts of sacred or semi-sacred texts. I do not think that the Coptic, Latin, and other translations retained as many nomina sacra as the Greek has; for example, Coptic Thomas, IIUC, has only two: Jesus and Spirit, whereas the Greek fragments of Thomas have the four I mentioned earlier: Jesus, God, Man, Father (there is no opportunity for Spirit in the fragments). So, where the Greek has a nomen sacrum for God, Man, or Father, the Coptic just uses the full Coptic translation for that word (this is all from Michael W. Grondin).

Coptic, as I understand it, uses supralinear strokes for grammatical and/or orthographic purposes, and I do not know what purpose, if any, would apply in the case of IS/IHS, since I do not know Coptic. No supralinear strokes exist in normal Greek for such purposes; rather, they serve, in the case of the nomina sacra, as a signal that the word has been abbreviated. Oh, and in the Byzantine era, I think, they also signaled a Greek letter being used as a numeral (since Arabic numerals had yet to be adopted and Roman numerals were a pain), but this usage is easily distinguished.
OK. Good question/s. One/s I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer, but one/s I'd like to explore (and maybe eventually be able to answer or at least provide commentary about or for).

To start that discussion: more questions (somewhat rhetorically, of course) -

How much of the interchangeability of those words that came to be represented by nomina sacra - God, Lord, (LORD?), Father, Saviour, Man, and Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous] - might derive from Second Temple Judaism and how much subsequently, ie. after the Fall of the Temple or in the so-called Inter-Testamentary Period?? I have always been struck by the interchangeability of words for entities or characters in each of the chapters of the book of Zechariah: in the same chapter the entity who appeared in a dream of vision and is said to speak to/with Zechariah is said to be, for example: a man, an angel and Lord, (+/- other terms)
I am not completely sure what you are asking here, and we do not see any nomina sacra in any manuscripts until verifiably "Christian" manuscripts start to appear, so this would be a century or more after the fall of Jerusalem in 70. The practice may have existed earlier, but we do not have the manuscripts, so we cannot say for certain.

It may help just to list the nomina sacra outright. I am consulting Metzger and Hurtado here. The four which are found well nigh universally in the Greek manuscripts are Lord, God, Jesus, and Christ. The rest, still very common, are Son, Spirit, David, Cross, Mother, Father, Israel, Savior, Man, Jerusalem, and Heaven, for a total of 15. Of these, Mother (for the Virgin Mary) is attested the latest (not until century IV; the rest are century III or earlier). There are quirky manuscripts which will abbreviate other words, like Moses, as well, but the above list is supposed to consist of the most common ones.
How sure can we be Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous] (or any other entity eg. G_d, Lord, Saviour, Man) is represented or meant by some of the nomina sacra in some of these texts?
Extremely likely. I mean, the counterargument would have to be divinely inspired or something. First, the nomina sacra fluctuate by case ending, meaning that we can see what those case endings are, and thus which declension each noun belongs to. Second, they exist in quotations of or allusions to the Hebrew scriptures where we can see exactly which word is being translated and simultaneously abbreviated, because the Hebrew does not use them and thus writes out each word in full. Third, while the nomina sacra are very common, they are not quite universal, meaning that sometimes the full word is left in the text instead. Fourth, as mentioned above, the various translations of the Greek NT texts do not retain them all the time, meaning that we can see which Coptic, Latin, Syriac, Ethiopic, Slavonic, or Armenian words are translating those Greek abbreviations. Fifth, context can often tell us which word is intended, especially since the abbreviations are just that: abbreviations, so their spelling and composition are not random. Sixth, there were two main ways of abbreviating the words: suspension (whereby Jesus would become Je) and contraction (whereby Jesus would become Js). Comparing words using different abbreviation techniques at particular spots in different manuscripts give us more letters for the word than just one abbreviation would give us. Seventh, just like cracking a code, you can tell you have a sequence cracked when you can insert the replacement into the original code meaningfully in all the other contexts in which it appears (in other words, once you guess that Jm might be Jerusalem, just plug Jerusalem into all the other spots in all the manuscripts where Jm appears and see if the sentences still make sense); the nomina sacra, however, would have to be regarded as the world's easiest code of all time to crack, since they are truly hiding nothing from us. Eighth, Christian authors sometimes write about the words themselves in ways that betray exactly which Greek word they have in mind, regardless of how it is abbreviated. Ninth, they are generally marked with an overstroke, so there is no mistaking them for shorter, unabbreviated words (which many/most of them cannot be anyway, phonetically speaking). Tenth, so much ink has been spilled on the matter from scholars who disagree with each other strenuously on what the nomina sacra mean in an overall sense that it would be incredible that something as obvious as "Jm with an overstroke does not mean Jerusalem after all" were to prove to be the case. Nothing is impossible, but such a thing would be remarkable.
Can we say Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous/Jesus] - or God, Lord, Saviour, Man, etc., - is more likely in some texts than others?
I would have to see the text and context. If it is a short nonword with a line over it, and if it matches perfectly one of the nomina sacra listed above both in form and in apparent or possible contextual meaning, and if it occurs in a text which is at least similar to other texts in which the nomina sacra have been found, then I would want to see a magnificent argument against the easiest conclusion to reach from such a convergence of evidence.
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