Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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Irish1975
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:37 am I just wrote a letter to the Canton of Geneve. Reading an academic book in French might well be the challenge I am looking for. Thanks!
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Stuart
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Stuart »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:59 pm Odd that this John the Baptist is unknown to Jews - Josephus is not a Jewish witness. Why would Marcion need to divorce the text from a marginal and possibly non-existent person? Isn't it more likely that the editor wanted to create an Elijah for his 'Jewish messiah'?
Intra Christian rivalry.

The Marcionite movement sought to remove Christian connections to Judaism. Their opposing camp wanted to tie Christianity more closely to Judaism. Inclusion of "the Law and the Prophets," that is the old testament, was a key point of contention.

If one thing is abundantly clear in studying the content of the Marcionite texts, it is that no one camp or sect controlled the texts. Various competing elements seemed to have left their mark in the texts. It was only when the Marcionites broke that we can begin to differentiate new layers that lack any Marcionite input (although influence is still found in the form of opposition to many of their points.)

Only when the Marcionites decided they needed an authoritative gospel for their evangelical mission did they deliberately make a gospel of their own. A gospel which became the backbone of a much larger and revised gospel we know as Luke. But like every other gospel (those in out Canonical collection) the author felt free to add, remove and adjust material of his inherited source(s) to fit his needs. In the case of the Marcionite author, removing the baptism of Jesus by John, his predecessor, and the addition of material to diminish his importance and show that he could not recognize Christ was absolutely necessary in their sectarian struggle.

The argument, put up by Marcionite priority advocates, that Mark took the elements of Luke 7:11-28 to create the Baptism story is too clever by half. The Marcionite diminishing of John's knowledge and role betrays a knowledge of a greater role of John, that of his baptism of Jesus. The argument would hold more merit were the Marcionite gospel missing the question of authority parable, and were Mark able to correctly identify his OT quotes (proving he developed from exegesis). Instead I think it's easier to believe the Marcionite author removed a few verses which didn't suite his story and otherwise expanded the book; pretty much the same way all the NT authors operated, a few strategic omissions otherwise passing the source material on intact, and significant new material expanding the book to cover points important to the author's message.

Anyway the reason was internal Christian sectarian debate. John the Baptist seems to have been a very early element in the story, from pre-Marcionite days, which was likely seen originally as a necessary binding of the new way to the old way. The Marcionites wanted to break completely with the old.
Secret Alias
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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I don't think there was a John the Baptist. I might be wrong. But like most of early Christianity - who cares? It's not like developing a cure for cancer or something.
davidmartin
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by davidmartin »

Stuart, nice work
One possible twist though
The diminishing of John might serve another purpose also, to differentiate him from Christ - given the possibility that to some he was indeed
Then this wouldn't be a straight Marcionite vs Judaic issue, but connect more with the Pauline gospel which could only have but one Christ who wasn't the baptist. This 'John that can't be the Christ' (stated explicitly in gJohn to remove all doubt "He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”! Hmmm) - is kind of what you might expect to see - Marcion or no Marcion
However the parts when he does speak and connects Jesus with the prophets is what you might expect from non-Marcion camp

The portrayal of John differs in the gJohn vs Synoptics .. he speaks in the same parable-like language Jesus does not the plain message of the synoptics, it could be more original

Maybe the origin of the baptist goes back to uncertainty over who the saviour figure was because of his presence in all the tellings rather than as a way to bind the new and the old originally - did the dove descend on him also in other words? Not a problem if until the complete uniqueness and name of Jesus became absolutely central in all respects

So I think Marcion might well have mentioned John and wished to separate him from Jesus and diminish him for this reason to agree with Paul's gospel In this he would have been in accord with his opponents. It's just Marcion's John wouldn't mention the prophets
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:25 pm I don't think there was a John the Baptist. I might be wrong. But like most of early Christianity - who cares? It's not like developing a cure for cancer or something.
I agree on John being fictional. Or rather the fictional Johns (baptist, apostle, evangelist) are literary characters derived from the legend of a patron saint. The legends likely bear on the barest of agreement with the actual life of the person or persons who lie at the foundation of the myth. In my view there was a movement of Christian baptism, with the name John as the patron saint. Apollos (Apelles?) is the connection in both Acts and 1 Corinthians. John is long gone, unknown life.

But I think the same of Mark (from which Marcosians and Marcionites among others), and Cephas/Peter (e.g., Simon) and Paul (cough, Simon also), and others. The proliferation of people trace back to a single legend in the prehistoric era of Christianity, and their literary presentation likely bears little resemblance to any real person to whom was bestowed patron sainthood.

And I go further, it applies to Ignatius, Polycarp, Papius and Hegesippius. All fictions, all literary inventions. This also applies to the heretic Valentinus, which I think is fictitious founder of gnostic sects (Valens in Latin can be translated "strong", so the Valentinians are the strong, those who have dietary restrictions being the weak) in much the same way Ebion was said to be the founder of the Ebionites.

In truth the movements probably developed over time, many having input rather than a single strong leader. But the sects took on patron saints as their spiritual founders. It is easier to tell a story of a legendary man having divine insight than of a committee debating to come to opinions. The same is probably true of Buddhism, and possibly Islam.
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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Stuart wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 12:49 pm
The argument, put up by Marcionite priority advocates, that Mark took the elements of Luke 7:11-28 to create the Baptism story is too clever by half.
without polemic, Stuart, but how this your claim can be a confutation is beyond of me. Can you detect clearly a clue of embarrassment in Mark about Jesus being baptized by John? I don't see it at all, whereas I see a lot of embarrassment in Matthew and Luke. This means that Mark had all the interest to connect Jesus with John in the incipit. Everything to gain and nothing to lose. The Gospel John the Baptist lives and dies as anti-marcionite icon. It is his DNA.
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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John is a pre-Marcionite figure, not post-Marcionite.

I am not a Marcionite prioritist. The Marcionite author is in the middle of the gospel writing stream, not at the head. He has inherited stories derived from OT exegesis with anything but a Marcionite world view. This makes him no different than the other gospel writers, both in having a sectarian view, and having embarrassment with some of the material inherited. Were it not for that embarrassment there would be no compulsion to have authored his own version. Same applies to all the other gospel writers.

Mark is the least clever of the gospel writers, in that he does not even know the OT - at least not well enough to know Malachi is not Isaiah. Mark lacks pointed attacks on Marcionite positions. Yet to read Mark as a response to the Marcionite gospel requires expert scholarly reading, and also for him to have a deep knowledge of the last prophet theology of Malachi (well Christian interpretation of Malachi to that effect). This is not at all how other gospel writers addressed their opponents. Matthew 5:17-18 is a brutal frontal assault on Marcionite beliefs. Similarly Matthew's 3:14-15 is a direct response to Marcionite views. When John takes on Matthew's theology he also does a full frontal in verse 1:21 to reject Matthew 11:14. Subtlety is not how repudiation was in the NT. Having mark invent the baptism story is to invest in Mark abilities no other gospel writer had. It makes him special, and it requires special reading into his account an agenda that isn't there -- or at least not visible to those without magic reading glasses.
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:25 pm But like most of early Christianity - who cares? It's not like developing a cure for cancer or something.
I tend to discount the idea of making contributions to math and science because they feel so inevitable. Just a matter of when.

Doing something different artistically or, in a soft field, academically, allows someone to have at least some contribution to culture.
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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The point is whether John the Baptist is 'real' or not. The gospel says he exists. Who cares. Josephus mentions him to but often in ways that seem ahistorical. Josephus also preserves for us a version of the fall of Jerusalem that is a strange mix of prophesy fulfillment written for a Gentile audience. The only other type of prophesy fulfillment that we know of aimed at a Gentile audience are the books of the New Testament. It is hard to believe that Josephus's account arose independently of Christianity. The closest example is the writings of Philo and Philo was actively used by Christians.
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Giuseppe »

Stuart wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 pm John is a pre-Marcionite figure, not post-Marcionite.
well, both Klinghardt and Vinzent would agree with you about this. If John is a pre-Marcionite figure, then he (or the oral tradition representing him) figured in Marcion as icon of an anti-Christian movement. A rival movement. In this scenario, Mark christianized John in order to use him against Marcion only, and not also against the rest of the Christian movement.

Stuart wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 pm I am not a Marcionite prioritist. The Marcionite author is in the middle of the gospel writing stream, not at the head.
Again, Vinzent would agree with you about this, because he assumes:

oral tradition ----> Marcion ----> Mark

John the Baptist would be part of 'oral tradition' (but without no knowledge of him as baptizer of Jesus).

Stuart assumes at contrary:

oral tradition (?)/OT scriptures ----> proto-Gospels -----> Marcion ----> our canonical Gospels

...where John the Baptist would figure as baptizer of Jesus already in: proto-Gospels.

Now, the following Stuart's quote sounds as a real confutation:
Stuart wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 pm Mark is the least clever of the gospel writers, in that he does not even know the OT - at least not well enough to know Malachi is not Isaiah. Mark lacks pointed attacks on Marcionite positions. Yet to read Mark as a response to the Marcionite gospel requires expert scholarly reading, and also for him to have a deep knowledge of the last prophet theology of Malachi (well Christian interpretation of Malachi to that effect). This is not at all how other gospel writers addressed their opponents. Matthew 5:17-18 is a brutal frontal assault on Marcionite beliefs. Similarly Matthew's 3:14-15 is a direct response to Marcionite views. When John takes on Matthew's theology he also does a full frontal in verse 1:21 to reject Matthew 11:14. Subtlety is not how repudiation was in the NT. Having mark invent the baptism story is to invest in Mark abilities no other gospel writer had. It makes him special, and it requires special reading into his account an agenda that isn't there -- or at least not visible to those without magic reading glasses.
The argument is well made. Only, my difficulty in taking a decision, stantibus sic rebus, is that I have read some books about Mark where the mantra, again and again, is that Mark is a genius, a clever writer, a Shakespeare, et similia, etc, etc.
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