Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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Stuart
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Stuart »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:13 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:44 am
Stuart wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:17 pm

I ask the question, why introduce a character with no background prior only to refute a theology not part of your Gospel elsewhere? If you are refuting it where did it come from?
I am sorry to admit it, but the answer is easy: Vinzent thinks that Marcion remembers John the Baptist and introduces him, since “oral tradition” about a historical Jesus commanded him to do so.

Here is a good example where the hypothesis of a historical Jesus forces a good scholar to do errors.

but note the other side of the coin: if John the Baptist was introduced by Marcion velim nolim since it was a historical fact that Jesus had relations with John, then the historicist (I refer to Andrew, for example) can't use as argument against the Marcionite priority the fact that John enters in Marcion without being introduced before.
just to clarify. My argument assumes that Mark is prior to both Marcion's gospel and canonical Luke and argues that if so then Marcion's gospel is a modification of (something like) Luke. I agree that this particular argument does not work against the IMO implausible claim that Marcion's gospel is prior to both Mark and Luke.

Andrew Criddle
I realize Andrew. I only meant I agreed with you that Marcion dropped the Baptism.

But I find it completely implausible that Marcion's Gospel was after Luke, as Luke is merely an expansion of the Marcionite version, including elements from other Gospels and sources to the form we have today. He also introduced all those Lukan favorite words famously absent from Marcion, whether they held any significant theological meaning or none whatsoever. As for the Gospel of Mark, I place that outside my sequence, all I know for certain is it was before Luke. Whether it was prior to any others, such as the first version of John, Matthew or Marcion's I cannot ascertain, he simply did not include any sectarian stories the other Gospels did. (This is also why his theology is so elusive)

Back to the point, we have differing models for the Gospel order. But for similar reasons agree on this point. The Baptism story, and more specifically that John is the forerunner the prophet predicted in Malachi, is presumed by the refuting of John in the passages of Marcion/Luke.

All the Marcionite author had to do was remove the 12 verses, Mark 1:2,4-14 (verse 1:1 being versification of a prototype Gospel's title, verse 1:3 and "prophet Isaiah" in 1:2 entered Mark from another process outside the scope of this discussion) and the move the fisherman story to allow his Christ to appear in Capernaum first. So it was no huge task. Whether this came from Mark (Andrew's view) or a common prototype Gospel (my view) does not materially change the argument.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Markus Vinzent
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Markus Vinzent »

Thanks to all of you, not only for your thorough reading of my work, but also for the detailed criticism. Special thanks for the editing of the passage by MrMacSon - I should turn to you for editing my English manuscripts, thanks so much for this one here.

On the question of John the Baptist, and why he appears im Marcion's Gospel.

Even if one is as sceptical as C. Rothschild is about the reliability of Josephus's account of John, I side with the solution that has been suggested by Giuseppe. As we can see from the way Marcion collected Paul's letters and presented them in his Apostolikon, we can conclude that he is not an early Shakespeare, but rather a collector, a decent editor and well versed in Greek. If we compare the opening of his Gospel with the accurate historical details - compared to the anachronistic and wrong information that Luke adds to this, we learn that Marcion had a sense for historiography. From this I suggest, he knew of John, the Baptist, just as Josephus knew (even if Josephus' account was edited by Christians later, as we can see from the divergencies between what Origen has to say about this passage and what we know of Josephus from the 11th c. Greek ms.), he may also have known of the links that in his oral sources were present between the disciples of John and that of Jesus, and it was this link that Marcion denied.
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Markus Vinzent »

By the way, I am about to finish a new book on "the formation of the New Testament in the second century" where John the Baptist is one of the protagonists
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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Markus Vinzent wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:44 pm By the way, I am about to finish a new book on "the formation of the New Testament in the second century" where John the Baptist is one of the protagonists
Great news! Thanks for popping in. I look forward to your new book!
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

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As religious belief continues to erode in the West we at the forum become the audience for this information. It will change the way early Christianity is studied. The Bible no longer represents the foundation of civilization. More like Amazon. Is there even a "Western civilization" any more? Isn't that one of the things we are being weaned off of? Sometimes it feels like we're at that point on the rollercoaster where we're suspended in the air awaiting the cataclysmic plunge.
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by mlinssen »

Markus Vinzent wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:44 pm By the way, I am about to finish a new book on "the formation of the New Testament in the second century" where John the Baptist is one of the protagonists
Going to be more of a booklet then hey :D

Seriously, I'm curious to know your angle on him. It is remarkable that he has such a tiny script in the NT yet somehow seems bigger than Jesus
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mlinssen
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:43 am It seems that John the Baptist is found in Marcion's Gospel.

But he is described as "who, having heard his works, was scandalized".

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2014/ ... n.html?m=1

In Paul, the Jews ask "signs", and in absence of them they are scandalized. In Marcion, if John the Baptist represents this same Jewish reaction, the same signs of Jesus scandalize them.

I like particularly the presence of the following passages in Mcn, according to prof Vinzent:

7:24 When John’s messengers had gone, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?
7:25 What did you go out to see? A man dressed in fancy clothes? Look, those who wear fancy clothes and live in luxury walk in kings’ courts!
7:26 What did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet, that among those born of women no one is greater than John, the

Baptist. 7:27 This is the one about whom it is written, ‘Look, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.’

7:28 Amen I tell you, however, the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.”

Marcion assumes the function of apt preparation and disposition (to receive a great, coming revelation) given to John by the Scriptures of the Demiurge. But to reiterate the usual marcionite point, again and again, that the revelation that arrived from an alien god was unexpected and surprising and scandalizing even for who, like John, was ready to receive a great revelation.

So in Mark's incipit the John's preparation for the Great Revelation is made better suited to what is about to happen. John is so prepared that he is shown as one who knows ALREADY at least some info about the Coming Christ: the his power of baptizing with Fire. The emphasis is on the knowledge, here.

I can agree already from now with prof Vinzent that this not-unpreparedness by John before the Great Revelation is a sign of anti-marcionite interpolation.

I should note also an interesting point shared by both Marcion and his enemies: the baptism of John is assumed a priori as an act of preparation for a Great Revelation. This talks about a mythical feature of the John's baptism, insofar it reflects the gnostic point that a good recipient (=the baptism's goal is to prepare good human recipients) has to be there, before a good reception (implicit: of the gnosis).

78 said IS : because-of who/at? did you(PL) come outward to the(F) field to behold a(n) reed he move outward by the wind and to behold a(n) human there-be garment they being-smooth on he in.the.manner of your(PL.PL) king with your(PL.PL) Mighty-one these the(PL) garment who/which being-smooth on they and they will be-able she/r know the(F) truth not

46 said IS : starting-from Adam toward Johannes the Immerser in the(PL) beget of the(PL) woman there-is-not he-who exalted to Johannes the Immerser So-that : Shan't! break viz. his(PL) eye did I say it However : he-who will come-to-be in you(r)(PL) he been-made of little he will know the(F) reign-of(F) king and he will be-high to Johannes

7:27 clearly points to Judaism being the basis to Jesus, which I find very unlike Marcion. 7:23 echoes the "being persecuted within" of Thomas.
I've recently started looking at Marcion, and he is the perfect fit in between Thomas and the canonicals
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Irish1975
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Irish1975 »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 9:25 pm As religious belief continues to erode in the West we at the forum become the audience for this information. It will change the way early Christianity is studied. The Bible no longer represents the foundation of civilization. More like Amazon. Is there even a "Western civilization" any more? Isn't that one of the things we are being weaned off of? Sometimes it feels like we're at that point on the rollercoaster where we're suspended in the air awaiting the cataclysmic plunge.
I don’t know if you read French, SA, but the philosopher Michel Onfray’s book Decadence: Life and Death of the West, from Jesus to Bin Laden (2017) takes essentially the same position. He is also a no-nonsense mythicist.
Secret Alias
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Secret Alias »

I just wrote a letter to the Canton of Geneve. Reading an academic book in French might well be the challenge I am looking for. Thanks!
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Re: Does Marcion's Gospel mention John the Baptist?

Post by Secret Alias »

I am also saying that the system necessarily has a 'buy in' quality to it. For instance, let's suppose that John the Baptist never existed. There are arguments for that. The argument against the non-existence of John isn't that it is unreasonable (wow that's a lot of negatives) to assume his non-existence, it is that exposes the possibility that our surviving 'historical' material(s) about John is/are rubbish. This says nothing about the fact that Jews and Samaritans know nothing about John that doesn't derive from Christian sources. It was very important for the orthodox to make Jesus have a predecessor and make him 'Jewish' cf. Celsus who seems to pick up on a Marcionite controversy.
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