A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Secret Alias
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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Think Moses theophany in Exodus = after six days.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by andrewcriddle »

See the parallels to this phrase in Mark 9:2 and Matthew 17:1

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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

In the Talk Section of the Wikipedia Page on "Secret Mark," someone claimed that "Secret Mark" uses English idioms, unfortunately the only example that they gave was the phrase "And he remained with him that night".

Based on John 1:39, Biblical Greek uses the word for word idiom word choice and order of
καὶ παρ’ αὐτῷ ἔμειναν τὴν (ἡμέραν / νυκτα) ἐκείνην·
And beside him they remained (day / night) that.

SOURCE: https://biblehub.com/text/john/1-39.htm
In common English speech, that verse is sometimes translated as:
And they remained with him that day. (ISV, LSV, Cf. NKJV and NLV versions)

However, "Secret Mark" uses the more word for word English idiom word choice and structure of
και εμεινε συν αυτω την νυκτα εκεινην·

And he remained with him night that.

SOURCE: https://web.archive.org/web/20150909124 ... indley.pdf
Morton Smith's translation into English, per the pdf above, was: "And he remained with him that night." This goes along with the ISV and LSV for John 1:39 and sounds good in English, but it's not how Biblical Greek worked in John 1.

To give an illustration of how Biblical Greek worked in Mark's known Gospel, Mark 16:10 says in English idiomatic translation that Mary Magdalene "went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping." This expression gets switched around in the Biblical Greek:
ἐκείνη πορευθεῖσα ἀπήγγειλεν τοῖς μετ’ αὐτοῦ γενομένοις πενθοῦσιν καὶ κλαίουσιν·
She having gone, told to those with/after Him having been mourning and weeping.
Are there other English idioms that show up in "Secret Mark?"
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:06 pm In the Talk Section of the Wikipedia Page on "Secret Mark," someone claimed that "Secret Mark" uses English idioms, unfortunately the only example that they gave was the phrase "And he remained with him that night".

Based on John 1:39, Biblical Greek uses the word for word idiom word choice and order of
καὶ παρ’ αὐτῷ ἔμειναν τὴν (ἡμέραν / νυκτα) ἐκείνην·
And beside him they remained (day / night) that.

SOURCE: https://biblehub.com/text/john/1-39.htm
In common English speech, that verse is sometimes translated as:
And they remained with him that day. (ISV, LSV, Cf. NKJV and NLV versions)

However, "Secret Mark" uses the more word for word English idiom word choice and structure of
και εμεινε συν αυτω την νυκτα εκεινην·

And he remained with him night that.

SOURCE: https://web.archive.org/web/20150909124 ... indley.pdf
Morton Smith's translation into English, per the pdf above, was: "And he remained with him that night." This goes along with the ISV and LSV for John 1:39 and sounds good in English, but it's not how Biblical Greek worked in John 1.

To give an illustration of how Biblical Greek worked in Mark's known Gospel, Mark 16:10 says in English idiomatic translation that Mary Magdalene "went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping." This expression gets switched around in the Biblical Greek:
ἐκείνη πορευθεῖσα ἀπήγγειλεν τοῖς μετ’ αὐτοῦ γενομένοις πενθοῦσιν καὶ κλαίουσιν·
She having gone, told to those with/after Him having been mourning and weeping.
Are there other English idioms that show up in "Secret Mark?"
Would not the first question be, is this an English idiom? A comment on a publicly edited web page and a couple of examples of a different construction hardly prove anything.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:23 pm
  • Morton Smith's translation into English, per the pdf above, was: "And he remained with him that night." This goes along with the ISV and LSV for John 1:39 and sounds good in English, but it's not how Biblical Greek worked in John 1.
Would not the first question be, is this an English idiom? A comment on a publicly edited web page and a couple of examples of a different construction hardly prove anything.
- The phrase "remained with him" brings up almost 4 million results in a Google Search.
- The Free Dictionary cites to Bram Stoker's Dracula's statement "He would not explain himself, but remained obstinately seated on his bed all the time I remained with him."
- "Remained with him" is the standard kind of English showing up in those Bible translations.

The issue has to do with Biblical Greek word choice and word order vs. Secret Mark's.

(Word Choice)
Remained "with" him is a normal English word choice. "Secret Mark" picks the Greek word "syn", lterally meaning "with."
But John 1:39 and Mark 16 pick "beside (par) him remained" and "with/after (meta) him having been."

(Word order)
"He remained with him" (Subject-Verb-instrumental preposition-object) is normal word order.
But John 1 and Mark 16, expressing the same kind of concept (remaining with him or being with him), pick the reverse word order in Biblical Greek.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:26 pm(Word Choice)
Remained "with" him is a normal English word choice. "Secret Mark" picks the Greek word "syn", lterally meaning "with."
But John 1:39 and Mark 16 pick "beside (par) him remained" and "with/after (meta) him having been).
Yes, but so what? Showing that one construction is used does not in any way show that another construction is not in Greek.
(Word order)
"He remained with him" (Subject-Verb-instrumental preposition-object) is normal word order.
But John 1 and Mark 16, expressing the same kind of concept (remaining with him or being with him), pick the reverse word order in Biblical Greek.
Again, so what? Showing that two sentences in Greek demonstrate that word order does not in any way prove that another word order is not used.

Dealing only with examples of the verb μένω, for example, here are some parallels to the Secret Mark sentence:

4 Maccabees 18.9, ἔμεινα δὲ χρόνον ἀκμῆς σὺν ἀνδρί.
Luke 1.56, ἔμεινεν δὲ Μαριὰμ σὺν αὐτῇ ὡς μῆνας τρεῖς.
Luke 24.29, καὶ εἰσῆλθεν τοῦ μεῖναι σὺν αὐτοῖς.
Acts 28.16, ἐπετράπη τῷ Παύλῳ μένειν καθ᾽ ἑαυτὸν σὺν τῷ φυλάσσοντι αὐτὸν στρατιώτῃ.
Apophthegmata Patrum, page 116, line 40, καὶ ἔμεινε σὺν αὐτῷ ὁ γέρων λαβὼν ἐνοικίου κελλίον.

There are also verbs of being, going, coming, sitting, and standing to consider, all of which would be relevant to the usage of σύν with an object.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

is this an English idiom
Outside the question of Secret Mark you'd expect at the very least that people who've been at this site and participated or observed thoughtful people having erudite discussions would at least be aware enough of their own limitations not to make a complete fool of themselves. "What happens when running with scissors" would be the name of this episode of Early Writings ...

Why is Rakofsky or whatever he calls himself attempting to make an argument he SHOULD KNOW he doesn't have adequate knowledge to make!

If you don't know that you don't know enough Greek to pontificate on the alleged anomalies in a Greek text chance are your other objections are similarly rooted in a lack of awareness and understanding. But even after this he will undoubtedly trod on ...
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

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You're shamelessly putting the cart in front of the horse and ending up in a ditch and are absolutely proud of yourself for it.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:32 pm
rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:26 pm(Word Choice)
Remained "with" him is a normal English word choice. "Secret Mark" picks the Greek word "syn", lterally meaning "with."
But John 1:39 and Mark 16 pick "beside (par) him remained" and "with/after (meta) him having been).
Yes, but so what?
So answered your reply to me when you said that the first question must be if it is an English idiom like I said.
Showing that one construction is used does not in any way show that another construction is not in Greek.
It has to do with a style of speech. When I write in Russian, even if I make all my sentences grammatically correct, there are still ways that I find myself making expressions that are straight translations of English phrases but still differing from the kind of nuances that a native speaker would tend to have. You get this kind of thing commonly when you are dealing with non-native speakers who have a good knowledge of a second language that they are using.

So "And beside/with him they remained that day" seems to reflect the Greek Biblical style for that kind of construction with certain features:
1. Beginning word is "And," and subsequent words are the verb, the instrumental preposition, and the object.
2. Subject is an unexplicated pronoun (they).
3. Sentence continues for a bit afterwards.

So for example you cited Luke 1:56 as a comparison:
"Ἔμεινεν δὲ Μαριὰμ σὺν αὐτῇ ὡς μῆνας τρεῖς καὶ ὑπέστρεψεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτῆς."

1. But the sentence does not start with a conjunction.
2. The verb is followed by the explicated subject, thus obviating the stylistic tendency for "with him" to precede the verb.

I can do the same with the other sentences.
4 Maccabees 18:9
RSVA: In the time of my maturity I remained with my husband, and when these sons had grown up their father died.
ἔμεινα δὲ χρόνον ἀκμῆς σὺν ἀνδρί. ({I} remained in the time of maturity with husband.)
1. But the subject doesn't begin with "And"
2. The verb is followed by the phrase "remained in the time of maturity," thus obviating the stylistic tendency for "with husband" to precede the verb.

Nonetheless Ben, your Greek is a thousand times better than mine, so I think that you have a better chance to feel out stylistic issues like these. I was not the person who wrote on Wikipedia that "And he remained with him that night" was an English idiom. I am guessing that the person has some familiarity with Greek because it looks to me like they are getting at an issue of word order tendencies in Biblical Greek style. We are talking about stylistic tendencies, so there could be arbitrariness and ambiguity in how one evaluates this.
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Ben C. Smith »

rakovsky wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:25 pmIt has to do with a style of speech. When I write in Russian, even if I make all my sentences grammatically correct, there are still ways that I find myself making expressions that are straight translations of English phrases but still differing from the kind of nuances that a native speaker would tend to have. You get this kind of thing commonly when you are dealing with non-native speakers who have a good knowledge of a second language that they are using.
Sure.
So for example you cited Luke 1:56 as a comparison:
"Ἔμεινεν δὲ Μαριὰμ σὺν αὐτῇ ὡς μῆνας τρεῖς καὶ ὑπέστρεψεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτῆς."

1. But the sentence does not start with a conjunction.
The δέ is postpositive.
2. The verb is followed by the explicated subject, thus obviating the stylistic tendency for "with him" to precede the verb.
What? None of this makes sense as a critique of a Greek sentence.
I can do the same with the other sentences.
Your critique does not work on them, either.
Nonetheless Ben, your Greek is a thousand times better than mine, so I think that you have a better chance to feel out stylistic issues like these. I was not the person who wrote on Wikipedia that "And he remained with him that night" was an English idiom. I am guessing that the person has some familiarity with Greek because it looks to me like they are getting at an issue of word order tendencies in Biblical Greek style. We are talking about stylistic tendencies, so there could be arbitrariness and ambiguity in how one evaluates this.
The construction is: καὶ ἔμεινε σὺν αὐτῷ τὴν νύκτα ἐκείνην. One thing at a time:
  1. Soooo many sentences, especially in Koine Greek, and especially in canonical Mark, begin with καί.
  2. The verb order is irrelevant here, since the subject is not expressed in this clause.
  3. The prepositional phrase can easily follow the verb, and I have given examples of this exact prepositional phrase following that exact verb.
  4. Adding an expression of time after all of this is fine for Greek.
Here, for example, is καί + verb + prepositional phrase + expression of time:

Genesis 14.15, καὶ ἐπέπεσεν ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς τὴν νύκτα.
Genesis 30.16, καὶ ἐκοιμήθη μετ᾽ αὐτῆς τὴν νύκτα ἐκείνην.
2 Samuel 17.1, καὶ καταδιώξω ὀπίσω Δαυιδ τὴν νύκτα.

And "expression of time" is crazy specific for this kind of grammatical analysis. Any number of other constructions could fit there, including lots of other prepositional phrases (which are also capable of expressing time).

ETA:

Judges 12.6 Alexandrinus, καὶ ἔπεσαν ἐξ Εφραιμ ἐν τῷ καιρῷ ἐκείνῳ δύο τεσσαράκοντα χιλιάδες (καί + verb + prepositional phrase + expression of time + subject).
Judges 20.21 Alexandrinus, καὶ διέφθειραν ἐν Ισραηλ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ δύο καὶ εἴκοσι χιλιάδας ἀνδρῶν (καί + verb + prepositional phrase + expression of time + direct object).

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