A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Steven Avery
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by Steven Avery »

Thanks. Is Ben speaking theoretically, or did he find close hits of that type of construction? There is a Greek linguist in Athens with whom we discussed the heavenly witnesses grammar who would likely would know the answer to this question, just from his varied Greek background.

Are there any examples of the construction in the NT?
Add ECW (early church fathers) and "LXX".
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rakovsky
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky »

Steven Avery wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:50 am Thanks. Is Ben speaking theoretically, or did he find close hits of that type of construction? There is a Greek linguist in Athens with whom we discussed the heavenly witnesses grammar who would likely would know the answer to this question, just from his varied Greek background.

Are there any examples of the construction in the NT?
Add ECW (early church fathers) and "LXX".
He found what I consider a few close hits, but judge for yourself. He posted them in this very thread in April (viewtopic.php?p=122325#p122325)
gryan
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Re: Seven Veils (Garments of Shame)

Post by gryan »

gryan wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:42 pm
rakovsky wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:10 am
billd89 wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:54 am
...One critic of "Secret Mark" noted that before its "discovery," Morton Smith had claimed that Clement of Alexandria taught lying for the faith, but that Morton Smith had come down on the wrong side of the debate and that Smith was misinterpreting Clement of A. on the topic. When Clement's "Letter to Theodore" showed up, it took Morton Smith's side of the debate, and instructed "Theodore" to lie even under oath.
This is a powerful argument.
If "Clement" taught lying only in the letter to Thedore, and nowhere else, that's a red flag.

Where does authentic Clement teach lying?
perseusomega9
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Re: A Suggestion for Revising the Early Writings' Entry for Secret Mark

Post by perseusomega9 »

DCHindley wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:35 am Very interesting. The Amish have had a very significant impact on Ohio, especially Holmes county.

The College of Wooster in the town of same name in Holmes County even used to close all classrooms on Wednesdays as that was the Amish "market day" and folks from across the state would come in by the thousands to attend them. This was in the late 1970s.

I currently live in Trumbull county (2nd largest Amish population behind Holmes county) and know or come into contact with Amish and other Old Order Mennonites all the time. Learned a lot about them, though, including that they read Martin Luther's Old High German translation of the bible, and speak a dialect of Deutsch sometimes called Pennsylvania Dutch.

The Amish are not usually inclined towards mysticism or visionary experiences. We're talking Anabaptists in the midst of the Protestant reformation, merging the theology of Luther and Calvin with a little Zwingli and even Catholicism - The founder of the Amish, a Roman Catholic priest named Amen who went over to the Mennonite causes.

But we were also once the home of the "Shakers," (not same as "Quakers" aka "Society of Friends,") a commune based collective who were really into having visions, and were willing to set up the environment to encourage folks to experience them. They got a lot of criticism about that, folks comparing them to parlor mediums who use tricks to make things appear to float, sounds come from nowhere, etc., to put the witnesses into "trances."

We had quite a few such commune sects out our way in our state's early past. Including Mormons, for whom visions were then acceptable, as they moved little by little across the US from the state of New York and end up in the state of Utah. We experienced them in Kirtland, Ohio, and they settled extensively in Lake, Geauga and Trumbull counties.

I suppose I could see an Amish man speaking German encountering Shakers or Mormons and describing his visions with them. The White garb he later adopted would not be acceptable to Old Order Amish men, although there are occasional exceptions (Beachy Amish).

Stranger things ...

Back to work boss, lunch over!

DCH
gryan wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:50 am
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:47 pm The point here is just to mention that sometimes everything comes up aces.
Point well taken. That reminds me of a novel I once read. Title forgotten.

I wrote some articles that were published based on finding previously unknown documents about an ancestor, Jonas "White" Stutzman, an eccentric Amish man who was the first European settler in Holmes Co. OH, and who in later life wore all white clothes, some say, including hat and shoes. The document was found by a local historian, much to his surprise (as I recall, perhaps falsely), soon after I had requested it. It was in German. After a friend translated it for me, I was delighted to learn that it was on the topic of my interest--his account of a series of religious raptures (I had had one of those too, which is what led me to my research). His raptures that him to predict the second coming of Christ in 3 1/2 year or in May 1853. My rapture led me to study Paul's third heaven ascent, and then the flesh phrase, "thorn in my flesh", and then the Galatians parallel, "your temptation in my flesh" Gal 4:14 and so on.

Also, Congrts! I hope it works out for you son to play Euro football.
I'm originally from Ohio but now live in NC, don't miss the snow at all. I love Holmes County, so beautiful and pastoral.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Seven Veils (Garments of Shame)

Post by andrewcriddle »

gryan wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:02 am
gryan wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:42 pm
rakovsky wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:10 am
billd89 wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:54 am
...One critic of "Secret Mark" noted that before its "discovery," Morton Smith had claimed that Clement of Alexandria taught lying for the faith, but that Morton Smith had come down on the wrong side of the debate and that Smith was misinterpreting Clement of A. on the topic. When Clement's "Letter to Theodore" showed up, it took Morton Smith's side of the debate, and instructed "Theodore" to lie even under oath.
This is a powerful argument.
If "Clement" taught lying only in the letter to Thedore, and nowhere else, that's a red flag.

Where does authentic Clement teach lying?
Clement in Stromateis book 7 says
The gnostic dignity is augmented and increased by him who has undertaken the first place in the teaching of others, and received the dispensation by word and deed of the greatest good on earth, by which he mediates contact and fellowship with the Divinity. And as those who worship terrestrial things pray to them as if they heard, confirming compacts before them; so, in men who are living images, the true majesty of the Word is received by the trustworthy teacher; and the beneficence exerted towards them is carried up to the Lord, after whose image he who is a true man by instruction creates and harmonizes, renewing to salvation the man who receives instruction. For as the Greeks called steel Ares, and wine Dionysus on account of a certain relation; so the Gnostic considering the benefit of his neighbours as his own salvation, may be called a living image of the Lord, not as respects the peculiarity of form, but the symbol of power and similarity of preaching.

Whatever, therefore, he has in his mind, he bears on his tongue, to those who are worthy to hear, speaking as well as living from assent and inclination. For he both thinks and speaks the truth; unless at any time, medicinally, as a physician for the safety of the sick, he may deceive or tell an untruth, according to the Sophists.

To illustrate: the noble apostle circumcised Timothy, though loudly declaring and writing that circumcision made with hands profits nothing. But that he might not, by dragging all at once away from the law to the circumcision of the heart through faith those of the Hebrews who were reluctant listeners, compel them to break away from the synagogue, he, "accommodating himself to the Jews, became a Jew that he might gain all."

He, then, who submits to accommodate himself merely for the benefit of his neighbours, for the salvation of those for whose sake he accommodates himself, not partaking in any dissimulation through the peril impending over the just from those who envy them, such an one by no means acts with compulsion. But for the benefit of his neighbours alone, he will do things which would not have been done by him primarily, if he did not do them on their account. Such an one gives himself for the Church, for the disciples whom he has begotten in faith; for an example to those who are capable of receiving the supreme economy of the philanthropic and God-loving Instructor, for confirmation of the truth of his words, for the exercise of love to the Lord. Such an one is unenslaved by fear, true in word, enduring in labour, never willing to lie by uttered word, and in it always securing sinlessness; since falsehood, being spoken with a certain deceit, is not an inert word, but operates to mischief.

On every hand, then, the Gnostic alone testifies to the truth in deed and word. For he always does rightly in all things, both in word and action, and in thought itself.

Such, then, to speak cursorily, is the piety of the Christian. If, then, he does these things according to duty and right reason, he does them piously and justly. And if such be the case, the Gnostic alone is really both pious, and just, and God-fearing.

The Christian is not impious. For this was the point incumbent on us to demonstrate to the philosophers; so that he will never in any way do aught bad or base (which is unjust). Consequently, therefore, he is not impious; but he alone fears God, holily and dutifully worshipping the true God, the universal Ruler, and King, and Sovereign, with the true piety.
Clement is following Philo here; he probably means that the Christian Gnostic will avoid being explicit in public about his more radical interpretations of the Bible,

Andrew Criddle
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