Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by neilgodfrey »

mbuckley3 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:50 am Neil's scepticism . . .
I know you don't mean to be sounding negative, but if "scepticism" has a negative ring to it here, I should say that I am really hoping to be able to see the support for Valliant and Fahy's thesis. It's just that I've been bitten before by trusting a confident-sounding presentation when they imply that the evidence is right there at everyone's fingertips. Always verify. Not looking to ditch the thesis, but looking for support for it. If it's not there, then something, somewhere, needs at least some modification.

Before I read the V&F book, I had been going through some books and articles addressing the archaeological evidence for the earliest Christians, in particular in catacombs. I was surprised to learn that some authors have pointed out that some icons that have been generally spoken of as Christian were in fact also pagan and there is no known way to tell in every situation if they point to a Christian or pagan identity. So in looking into V&F's thesis I do want to check out the details and knowing where to read with some caution.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Another detail re V&F's book -- V&F do speak of messianic hopes being a major factor among ringleaders of those at war against the Romans in the 66-70 war. That may be true, but it is not a clear cut fact. With Steve Mason (and even going back to Albert Schweitzer iirc) we have seen doubts expressed on that score. But there are certainly significant influences or parallels between Josephus's writings and Gospels-Acts that need explaining. (Since V&F I have been re-reading the Life of Josephus and am struck at several new parallels in Acts that I never noticed before. I may post about them some time.)
andrewcriddle
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by andrewcriddle »

FWIW I mentioned earlier in this thread that the catacomb imagery seems to be dolphin and trident not dolphin and anchor.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:55 am FWIW I mentioned earlier in this thread that the catacomb imagery seems to be dolphin and trident not dolphin and anchor.

Andrew Criddle
Yes . Saw that, thanks. V&F acknowledge the trident image, too.
mbuckley3
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by mbuckley3 »

For stock Roman iconography, an invaluable resource is the Roman Provincial Coinage project. It's up-to-date, fully illustrated, freely available online (rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk).

As regards the device of a dolphin wrapped around a trident, a very quick search yielded the following examples.

RPC I.1293 : 32 BC, Zacynthus/Peloponnese
RPC I.4533 : 29-28 BC, Berytus/Syria
RPC I.4536 : reign of Augustus, Berytus/Syria
RPC I.1386 : reign of Augustus, Buthrotum/Epirus

No Flavians or Christians in sight.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Here is an image said to be from the second-century catacombs of St Domitilla. I sometimes see it described as a "Christian" inscription but I have not been able to find out why it is identified as Christian. The same catacombs are said to contain a mix of pagan and Christian iconography.

Does anyone know what is the Christian "giveaway" in this image-inscription? (I don't mean "How can it be interpreted as an expression of Christian meaning?" -- (e.g. fish are converts clinging to the hope of the anchor which is a New Testament metaphor for hope, etc) -- but something solid, something that clearly identifies it as Christian and not pagan. Fish and anchors were not unique to Christian representations, after all.

And what dates it to the second century? Or knows of a source where I can find that sort of information?

simboli_paleocristiani.jpg
simboli_paleocristiani.jpg (158.46 KiB) Viewed 2577 times

Thanks
N
StephenGoranson
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by StephenGoranson »

I don't have it at hand, but it may be discussed in:
Ante pacem: archaeological evidence of church life before Constantine
Graydon F. Snyder.
Macon, Ga. : Mercer University Press, 2003. Rev. ed.
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DCHindley
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by DCHindley »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:02 am Here is an image said to be from the second-century catacombs of St Domitilla. I sometimes see it described as a "Christian" inscription but I have not been able to find out why it is identified as Christian. The same catacombs are said to contain a mix of pagan and Christian iconography.

Does anyone know what is the Christian "giveaway" in this image-inscription? (I don't mean "How can it be interpreted as an expression of Christian meaning?" -- (e.g. fish are converts clinging to the hope of the anchor which is a New Testament metaphor for hope, etc) -- but something solid, something that clearly identifies it as Christian and not pagan. Fish and anchors were not unique to Christian representations, after all.

And what dates it to the second century? Or knows of a source where I can find that sort of information?


simboli_paleocristiani.jpg


Thanks
N
Neil,

Usually I would think that a fisherman does not catch any fish with an anchor.

What you have here is more likely a fish-hook for catching fish.

Maybe he was a town fish monger.

OK, boss, break over ...
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Ken Olson
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by Ken Olson »

DCHindley wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:34 pm Usually I would think that a fisherman does not catch any fish with an anchor.

What you have here is more likely a fish-hook for catching fish.
anchor.jpg
anchor.jpg (26.87 KiB) Viewed 2519 times
The symbol does look like an ancient anchor and is usually held to represent an anchor by those who interpret it as a Christian symbol.

The pic above is of a replica, of course, and not an actual recovered archaeological artifact.

anchor recovered.jpeg
anchor recovered.jpeg (212.69 KiB) Viewed 2519 times
This is an actual ancient anchor recovered off the coast of Israel.
Additional note: And Irish1975's OP in this thread, besides the above links.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Archeological evidence for the Flavian Hypothesis?

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:23 am I don't have it at hand, but it may be discussed in:
Ante pacem: archaeological evidence of church life before Constantine
Graydon F. Snyder.
Macon, Ga. : Mercer University Press, 2003. Rev. ed.
Thanks, but unfortunately Snyder (both 1985 and 2003 eds) does not address this particular image and his discussion of the Domitilla catacombs is too general to answer my specific questions. Meantime, I have requested copies of various cited articles/pages from Snyder and elsewhere in hopes of learning more. Some leads suggest it is in a pagan section of the catacomb, others possibly a Christian one. Still digging.
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